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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men of the far right and the women's movement

463 replies

SapphosRock · 28/09/2022 16:12

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

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BitossiBlues · 04/10/2022 00:16

Perhaps the OP and her feminist friends could ask Masih Alinejad whether she thinks PP is a fascist racist for her opinion of the hijab. It's a shame this clip does not cover the whole interview, because she absolutely lays into Western feminism for their hypocrisy over treating discussion of the hijab as racism, whilst women in Iran are dying for the right to cast them off.

Datun · 04/10/2022 05:08

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 03/10/2022 22:49

You people are boring me fucking witless

I've got real life shit occupying me

Prove it or fuck off

Rufus!

<faints>

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 05:22

The hijab angle is remarkable, anyway. Because criticizing the hijab on a prepubescent child (which is controversial even within hijab wearing communities) is apparently racist/fascist, but forcing hijab wearing women into changing rooms, showers… with lady-dick, something that surely against all Islamic norms and rules, is not racist/fascist, apparently.

I‘m pretty sure the hijab wearing community will side with Posie on this. But then again, that community does have strong patriarchal vibes, so they won‘t be good allies for the feminist cause, either…

That brings us into a situation, where we can‘t have conservative muslims on our side, and we also can‘t have Posie on our side for criticizing an aspect of conservative islam….

This is all very rational.

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 07:24

This thread about anti purity spirals is interesting

twitter.com/cache_pas/status/1576530254717284354?s=46&t=zfITpBlKbSFesviegsoTSA

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deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 07:40

I frankly can‘t take anti-free-speech people, like the thread writer, seriously, Sappho. We all have experienced how the anti-free-speech proponents silenced GC feminist - and unsurprisingly so, because speech moderation will ALWAYS benefit those in power. And there this person claims, free speech is the problem because it favors the loudest. I just can‘t…

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 07:52

They are your boundaries to set deepwatersolo

I hope you can respect that some women do have very clear boundaries around their activism. I think these boundaries should be respected and I don't think they should be accused of being woke, anti free speech, puritan head girls.

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FOJN · 04/10/2022 07:55

That thread on!y works if you accept that the alternative to arbitrary lines in the sand is no limits on free speech at all. I believe some of the people coming under attack have been very clear that they favour lawful free speech. Pushing for limits on speech that is within the law is where the purity spiral starts.

beastlyslumber · 04/10/2022 07:58

But you can't make boundaries for other women. Sure you can put as many boundaries as you like around your own activism. But telling PP or other women that they should have the same boundaries is where it becomes a problem. Because it's nothing to do with you.

I respect your right to not go to KJK's events and to organise your events very differvently. Have at it!

But you've NO RIGHT whatsoever to harass other women for making different choices.

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 08:08

Sure Sappho, I respect that, but Posie‘s event is not your activism, is it?

Helleofabore · 04/10/2022 08:09

I read that thread when I was first tweeted. it isn’t that relevant to this thread.

Sapphos, people aren’t saying there should be ‘no lines’.

People are :

-pointing out that your mate and some other feminists are bullies, despite some of them doing such amazing work to progress women’s needs.

-pointing out that not one person who waves their hand about ‘allowing ‘far’ right wing groups to video’ has offered useful advice how that works with events in public uncontrolled spaces.

-asking for definitions of far right and fascist because so far it seems that ‘far right’ and ‘racist’ has become a useless catch all for anyone that even talked to someone once. The very fact Andy Ngo was posed as ‘far right’ anf then what was posted as evidence leads us to believe that some people repeating the ‘fascist’ and ‘far right’ claims seem to take someone else’s prejudiced view as being expert.

-pointing out those demanding denouncements also have not suggested how that works for these events.

and finally

-pointing out the hypocrisy where instances in the past of other feminists and feminist groups or LGB organisations where ‘bad people’ were allowed who videoed or protested, or where they associated with or ‘worked with’, had no push back from these same people demanding it now.

And frankly, posting that thread here is another example of ‘us and them’ or absolutism. It merely contributes to the vilification that was started with a statement that included a ‘sin list’ for a woman who is working rather successfully doing her own style of activism that then included a large proportion of items that other approved feminists had discussed with no vilification.

A woman who has also been instrumental in spurring on fundraising for women who needed it as well as letting other women out there have a voice.

So, sorry. I disagree that that thread is ‘interesting’. I thought that thread was not particularly relevant to this one unless someone is determined to continue the absolutism.

In which case, let’s splinter the whole damn movement apart and your group can stay pure and left behind. Because I believe there has been plenty of attempts at ‘purifying’ other groups like Sex Matters who are not set up along political ideological lines and I have seen the pushback.

It has not been in favour of ‘purity’. And it is perfectly fine. Groups come and go. They are all perfectly able to be created and do their thing and either gain or lose relevance to the wider movement. It is perfectly fine to stay pure and do your own thing.

It is the pressure to conform to demands that is the issue. But this has been repeated so many times now over numerous threads, hasn’t it?

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 08:09

There is no harassment of PP.

The Brighton feminists wanted to make it very clear that the SFW event was nothing to do with them and distance themselves from PP.

There is a lot of sensitive stuff happening here. Women's services are under attack and there is a lot of progress being made behind closed doors.

If people think the feminists in Brighton and SFW are one and the same that would give the TRAs much ammunition.

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deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 08:10

Well, that speech needs to be lawful is not in dispute. But ‚TERFs‘ were not censored for unlawful speech.

Helleofabore · 04/10/2022 08:14

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 08:09

There is no harassment of PP.

The Brighton feminists wanted to make it very clear that the SFW event was nothing to do with them and distance themselves from PP.

There is a lot of sensitive stuff happening here. Women's services are under attack and there is a lot of progress being made behind closed doors.

If people think the feminists in Brighton and SFW are one and the same that would give the TRAs much ammunition.

That sin page is harassment because it contains partial truths or untruths.

beastlyslumber · 04/10/2022 08:17

I don't see why you couldn't just say "this event is nothing to do with us" and be done with it.

I don't think KJK's event was going to be accidentally credited to you.

No need for the endless harassment - and yes, it is harassment and bullying - of women who have nothing to do with you.

And frankly, if whatever you are up to "behind the scenes" can be harmed by women speaking the truth, then maybe you're the ones who have some unsavoury associations.

Helleofabore · 04/10/2022 08:17

-If people think the feminists in Brighton and SFW are one and the same that would give the TRAs much ammunition.

So this all started because TRAs lack the ability to think critically, to make balanced judgements and that your area is obviously so saturated with them that it is supposedly ok to have started this purity purge.

Good to know.

beastlyslumber · 04/10/2022 08:18

Oh right, so you are doing the pick me dance for TRAs.

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 08:19

You have a register with Posie‘s ‚sins‘ to signal to the TRAs that you are not bad girls like her, but the good ones?

Makes me wonder where you folk draw the line when it comes to throwing women under the bus.

Looks like you are ready to make quite a lot of concessions to acquiesce the TRAs. But Posie‘s the one with the line-drawing issues…

Helleofabore · 04/10/2022 08:21

Sorry. Let’s all remember that the HoO was mentioned as a ‘reason’ for not attending, when not one person knew who the people were before Alf’s video and no one knew they were streaming until after it was discovered they’d done it.

But it was retrospectively used as a reason. I don’t consider that particularly honest.

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 08:24

I don't think KJK's event was going to be accidentally credited to you.

You give TRAs a lot more credit than me. I really don't think they get the nuances and see us all as anti trans.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2022 08:28

You people are boring me fucking witless

I've got real life shit occupying me

Prove it or fuck off

I heart Rufus. Cutting through all the waffling nothingness.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2022 08:29

But it was retrospectively used as a reason. I don’t consider that particularly honest.

Quite.

deepwatersolo · 04/10/2022 08:31

And you, Sappho have lost the plot if you believe walking on egg-shells in regards to TRAs and throwing women like Posie under the bus will advance the feminist cause.

Has it ever occurred to you that TRAs might demand such things like the denunciation of other activists, like Posie, in order to destroy the movement as a whole?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/10/2022 08:32

I don't think they should be accused of being woke, anti free speech, puritan head girls.

It's hardly the worst insult ever, is it? Maybe they should think about how they come across to other women. I'm sure we should all self reflect on a regular basis.

SapphosRock · 04/10/2022 08:36

It's not walking on egg shells, it is being very clear that feminists do not agree with or condone statements like this.

If PP is going to use her free speech to put stuff like this out in the public domain she needs to accept some people will draw the line at having anything to do with her.

Men of the far right and the women's movement
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Helleofabore · 04/10/2022 08:37

I am going to do a ‘if only’ here myself.

If only Brighton feminists released a statement that said we have political differences with SFW and won’t be attending and left it at that, I imagine this would have died away.

But no. I assume one of the people named on this or another thread who had to tweet and start the bullying cycle was probably involved in compiling and publishing the ‘sin list’.

Gosh. Imagine being someone so unable to accept another person’s views that you resorted to listing misrepresentations and untrue things on a sin list and tweeting somethings that started a schism that has now become so divisive that women are now looking at the ‘left wing’ feminists with distrust.

Well done that person.