Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

Bitossi if OP was a TRA, how do we know they are not a TRA now and that the whole point of the exercise is not to blunt and undermine a movement that might achieve the very goals TRAs fight against?

I guess that those supporting denouncement demands would also be happy with this type of action at conferences and seminars.

twitter.com/shonaghdillon/status/1575058128374099970?s=46&t=ZezFEDboHlNCUC8Z-cb8Jg

Both Shonagh Dillon and Julie Bindel had their tickets cancelled to a gender based violence conference last month. Because they are the wrong type of feminists.

or this

twitter.com/el_nagashi/status/1575124199366074368?s=46&t=ZezFEDboHlNCUC8Z-cb8Jg

Lesbian’s tickets cancelled to a European Lesbian conference for wrong think.

Yet, this seems to be the end goal of those who are tightening the purity spiral for women fighting against the conflicts of gender identity ideology, isn’t it?

This is how echo chambers are created and strengthened. This is a probable end result in the current demands.

Obviously some people think this is righteous. That their left wing credentials remain for ever unsullied by even a whiff of ever speaking to or passing in the vicinity of someone not approved.

If that is their priority, fine. Just don’t bully others to follow suit. Just be up front that purity is the priority and that hypocritically, bullying is fair game to achieve that need.

No one knew who they were and they appear to have had very little interaction with anyone else at the event. Most of us had no idea who they were until the real feminists™ told us. The video footage was of poor quality and HoO have had very few views and most of the comments on the video suggest few, if any, of their viewers have any idea what the event was about. It's the real feminists™ insisting that there is a relationship between SFW and HoO, the evidence does not support this claim.

Don’t forget that the Brighton feminists attempted to retrospectively use the presence of this group (initially we were told it was two men!!) as an explanation why they weren’t present. Like they knew they would be there.

Feminists don't "own" the campaign to oppose gender ideology, how is this any of my business?

This. Of course not everyone who thinks gender identity ideology and queer theory teaching in schools is absurd and toxic is going to be aligned with you politically.

Yet, this seems to be the end goal of those who are tightening the purity spiral for women fighting against the conflicts of gender identity ideology, isn’t it?

Yes, it does.

Bitossi if OP was a TRA, how do we know they are not a TRA now and that the whole point of the exercise is not to blunt and undermine a movement that might achieve the very goals TRAs fight against?

Well, I think it's up to us all what we think.

Also, Posie's goal isn't their goal. She's not particularly gender critically focussed, as far as I know.

She wants men out of women's spaces and children protected from what she sees as a mens rights movement.

I see it as masquerading as an ideology, pretending to be a civil rights issue, but I'm not even sure she goes that far.

'Porn addled men using kids to justify their demands' is mostly her take.

She doesn't get bogged down with they whys and wherefores. She knows people can mostly see through it, all she does is lift the lid.

It's not the same process as a lot of feminists take. They see it all as symptomatic of a patriarchy. But you don't have to even believe in a patriarchy to see it as wrong.

And that's why she's reaching so many people. She doesn't require conditions from people to let them support her goal.

TLDR: eyes on the prize.

As a side note, I'd be interested to see if she turns her attention elsewhere once this is sorted. Dismantling patriarchy one symptom at a time, sort of thing. Without even mentioning the word.

So these girls should also then be ostracised? Should they have a denouncement?

thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-girl-track-stars-take-connecticut-to-court-over-biological-males-in-their-sport

Oh wait, since no one else would take their case, weren't they already ostracised?

Also, Posie's goal isn't their goal. She's not particularly gender critically focussed, as far as I know.

She wants men out of women's spaces and children protected from what she sees as a mens rights movement.

No, exactly. This is why she appeals to ordinary women, because you don't have to read reams of inaccessible academic waffle to have an opinion on it.

Posie‘s goal may not be their goal, but surely the goals overlap well enough (women only spaces, not transing kids…) that kneecapping Posie is counter- productive to their own stated cause, no?

As for the female athletes: that‘s the thing, isn‘t it. Regarding such clear women’s rights issues the Left now always delivers too little too late (if at all) and is then miffed when someone from the other side takes up the cause ‚for the wrong reasons’ AND THE ABANDONED VICTIMS OF THE DISCRMINATION DON‘T PREVENT IT.

I’m not sure left, right etc are that useful in thinking about this. There’s a lot of people who don’t agree with gender identity once they tune into it, because it’s such obvious nonsense causing so many massive problems. But it’s still important why people don’t agree.

• One set of reasons not to agree with gender ID is because it’s terrible for women, children and gay/lesbian people.

• Then there’s the authoritarian culture around it and the idea we’re all meant to say things which aren’t true, the moral policing and purity spirals.

• A different reason is because people being visibly trans involves more men wearing dresses and more women having male names and everyone doing things they’re not meant to do according to patriarchy.

Now we all get accused all the time of being against gender ID because of this last reason. It doesn’t remotely help making the actual gender critical case if people who think the first two things ally with people who think the last thing. As we’re talking about people who think social liberalism -including women’s rights- have gone too far and need to be reversed.

Its not about purity or elitism or particular personalities. It’s about what are gender critical political interests and which kind of allies help or hinder these interests. Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical case.

Congratulations, you've just described ideological purity. "We should only align with people who want the same thing as us for the same reasons."

And honestly, if you think that any hint of connection to the far right damages the cause, STOP BLOODY HINTING IT

It’s about what are gender critical political interests and which kind of allies help or hinder these interests. Any hint of far right involvement will harm the gender critical case.

But it’s impossible to completely distance yourself from people who overlap in views unless you completely jettison the overlapped bit.

And as the overlapped bit is ‘retain single sex spaces, sports and services’, ‘don’t trans children’ and ‘reality matters in law and in language’ jettisoning the overlap is neither possible nor desirable.

Disingenuous critics of radical/GC feminism have been trying to pretend we completely overlap with social conservatives on all points for absolutely ages now.

It’s utter hookum, of course, but our opponents smearing us with it is a somewhat understandable tactic, even if it’s based on a lie.

But it makes absolutely-no-fucking-sense-at-all for The Real Feminists of Brighton to start using this tired old TRA tactic at the other women (and men) in the exact same circle of the Venn diagram as themselves.

They just look like idiots for trying.

The TRAs have been calling as Nazis and Fascists for what, 8-10 years now?

Most of us have stopped worrying about how popular we are amongst the blue hairs at our local CLP meeting and have instead just gotten on with getting shit done.

We aren’t actually catching cooties from the handful of free market, socially conservative brexiteers who also happen to believe that grass is green, water is wet and there are only two sexes.

It’s not ideological purity, it’s being pragmatic and thinking politically. There’s a lot of people who want to end gender bollocks for lots of different reasons. Most of those can coexist and work together without harming each other’s aims. As has been happening so far.

Some aren’t compatible, which yes includes the far right because they only know what women are because they know which half of the human race should be staying at home and having pure European babies or whatever crap they believe.

There’s an optics problem with it, ie lots of people think we’re all far right anyway, and a political interest problem, as in it’s helping people to make the case that feminism has gone too far and needs to be stopped. That’s not ideological purity it’s knowing what your aims and interests are and being pragmatic in getting them done.

I think OP* posted a lot a few years ago in support of TW, had some sort of epiphany (IIRC as a lesbian struggling with the incursion of TW on lesbian spaces) and realised GC women had a point. Which is great, and somewhat proves Posie's point, that if you speak to all women and embrace all women as women, not just the ones that share your political/social/sexual worldview, then we will be much stronger because biological reality transcends all of the other stuff.

*Profuse apologies to the OP if this is a case of mistaken identity.

Lappil Why? If I want to get male-inmate-free women‘s prisons to protect women, why would I care if, say, the deciding vote is from a guy who thinks that idk, he has to save patriarchy from flowery dressed males and doesn‘t give a shit about protecting the female inmates.
The point is to get the male- inmate- free space, to protect women. And if I can get that with the help of this dude, then so be it.

Because this dude on this issue helps our interest.

If I am anti-colonial antiwar left why wouldn’t I build a coalition with some conservative isolationist? My reasons will be totally different from his, but if we can together achieve an end to this he bombing, why would I not work with that guy? Even if he, say, detests that foreign culture that doesn‘t deserve the ‚noble help‘, while I see our intervention as anything but help in the first place?

The point is to achieve the goal! And achieving your goal by definition helps and doesn’t hinder your interest.

@LangClegsInSpace Thank you so much for the link to Wombs with a View #LetBlackWomenSpeak Special. I agree with so much of what these brilliant women are saying; they say things a lot of people of colour think, but the left doesn't want to listen to us because it doesn't fit their narrative and their perceived ownership of us all.

Yes know what you mean it’s not always clear cut. Which is why it’s really important to be clear about what the aims are, what everyone’s reason is for being against gender identity, and what the purpose of working together is. Sometimes it might be pragmatic to work with someone who has a very different view eg if they have traction in the government or media. But fringe far right groups don’t have any benefit, they get all the benefit from leeching off women’s hard work.

That’s the other thing- the far right are entryists, they will try to latch on to anything which is getting traction and can use for content to bring people into their worldview. The far/hard left are exactly the same, it’s the only way that these tiny political ideologies get a look in. I just don’t understand why we would help them out.

This isn’t particularly a criticism of the event in Brighton and definitely not the women who were there or who go to Posie’s stuff. It’s more that we’re starting to win, and so these parasitic groups will try and latch on. We don’t have to let them.

Sometimes you might work with people who disagree to achieve a particular aim. But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

In the UK we don’t need to, there are plenty of mainstream politicians and media who will listen and report on these issues. An increasing amount. Sports bodies are changing their policies, public sector institutions are leaving Stonewall, GIDS is being shut.There’s a long way to go but we are starting to win. We have more political clout, collectively, than far right groups in the UK.

So how does it help to work with them? It definitely doesn’t help make it clear that gender critical women are not actually far right bigots to all these mainstream bodies, politicians and organisations who are starting to listen. It’s not just who agrees on the issue, it’s how do we win the political war as well.

There’s an optics problem with it, ie lots of people think we’re all far right anyway, and a political interest problem, as in it’s helping people to make the case that feminism has gone too far and needs to be stopped.

Fuck optics, we passed that stage at least 5 years back.

and Feminism HAS gone to far - it’s gone all the way to Sex Work Is Work and Only Fans is A Good Way to Pay for University.

Lappil it isn‘t even about working with far right groups. It is about doing your thing, regardless. And if the issue is so blatantly obvious that a very diverse crowd agrees with your goal, surely you score the f*ing goal instead of getting side-tracked by the question of whether those who support your goal do it for the right reasons.

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

I don't know, let's have a look. Who is doing so, what groups exactly, what are they working with them on, and what is it achieving?

I can't actually immediately think of anyone doing so - just a lot of instances of people who are baselessly accused of "working with far right groups" for not making the right denouncey noises.

Any real "working with" links seem to rely on at least a couple of degrees of separation, or a very broad definition of "far right". And even then the ones I can think of are mostly US - as you say, it's not really necessary here, so it doesn't happen.

Also, we’ve spun this one out over what, 3 threads already but…

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

What Far Right groups are GC women working with?

(you may find it useful to first define ‘Far Right’ and then define ‘working with’)

But does it help gender critical women to work with far right groups?

good job no one is then