Can someone explain why transgend is OK but transracial is not?

[speakout]

I am trying to understand the arguements.
My niece and I have been trying to find reasoned arguments or points of view to understand why transgender and transracial are so "completely different".
Other than the " if you can't see the difference you must be stupid".
Anyone found some logical explanation?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4637908-academic-article-on-the-dutch-protocol-puberty-blockers-etc-by-michael-biggs

This OP has a new paper that is interesting reading.

I accept and respect that you, and others, won't see the boundary between autonomy and protection in the same way as I do and won't share my opinion.
I did want to point out that I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying- co-morbidities should definitely be explored, additional vulnerabilities should be considered, other options should be explained etc. There may be some people currently transitioning where the risk balance hasn't been properly considered, I'm sure.
Most of the posters here have definitely given me food for thought, so I'm glad I posted, we learn more about our own views from being challenged I think.

Also why can't people claim to be 'trans age'? Just as biologically impossible. I have read that some have tried this and it has been refused (eg to collect pension, some perv trying to declare himself a 6 year old girl etc).

Define ‘harm’.

This is my understanding of the difference. It makes no logical sense. It would make far more sense if it were the others way round.

Going back to the original question, I have a feeling it is something to do with, the fight for the end to racism has come from the bottom up; the people fighting for it have never been and are still not a dominant group (in white, western societies at least) and have had to struggle to get attitudes and policies changed.

Transgenderism has come to society the other way - the dominant group (men) have influenced attitudes and policies from the top down, (looking at you Stonewall) as they are already in a position of power. Therefore they have been able to dictate what is and isn't acceptable, rather than having to fight and negotiate, and ultimately have attitudes and policies that are (mostly) acceptable and fair to everyone.

They are also taking advantage of current societal attitudes about being inclusive and non-discriminatory (which IMO have been brought about other by minority groups - LGB, disabled, religious, etc) and use it to shut down any debate or questioning by immediately bleating about transphobia and hate crimes.

There is also something to do with what benefits an individual can gain from claiming an oppressed identity, which is also tied up in the high profile and non-questionable (as in, you aren't allowed to question it) status that trans ideology has at the moment.

(This is all a bit of a mish mash in my brain, and I haven't thought it through in great detail. Please don't flame me!)

Lol as soon as there might be a financial implication the powers that be suddenly understand the importance of reality.

Someone stated its because sex is a spectrum unlike race. I could not tell if this person was taking the piss or serious I actually think they were probably serious.

Your niece can only answer ' its obvious' because she cannot explain it either!

Here is an account from an Australian detransitioner who is now suing her psychologist.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4618227-australian-detransitioner-suing-psychiatrist-over-lack-of-care

www.smh.com.au/national/absolutely-devastating-woman-sues-psychiatrist-over-gender-transition-20220823-p5bbyr.html

Should this 19 year old who was referred by her Endocrinologist (or Androligist to be precise) as needing a thorough psychiatric work-up have their need for care diminished with a 'regret and sadness' should not override her autonomy?

"According to a statement of claim filed in the NSW Supreme Court in May, the referral letter from Professor Ann Conway said it “seemed likely” Langadinos had “true gender dysphoria”, but she was “very young” and “clearly” needed “thorough psychiatric work-up before embarking on hormone treatment”."

I get that you prioritise autonomy, but I think that at the moment 'autonomy' is being obfuscated by the impact of the amplification of 'no debate' and the move now for explorative therapy to be treated as conversion therapy.

For instance, if this woman had have been denied the treatment she demanded in either Victoria, Queensland or some other states, the clinician may have been sued for NOT providing her the treatment she demanded.

What is true autonomy at the moment? How is it to be judged? That a vulnerable patient who is determined to get this treatment states what is clearly their desire at that time, but has been judged vulnerable, but is given that treatment anyway... is that true autonomy?

And where does the line lie then? Which patient is the tipping point where a clinician says 'no, this person is clearly not well enough to make this choice?'.

How is that to be judged now in this current era?

@Helleofabore

'I get that you prioritise autonomy, but I think that at the moment 'autonomy' is being obfuscated by the impact of the amplification of 'no debate' and the move now for explorative therapy to be treated as conversion therapy.'

Yes, I think you are absolutely right - I don't support explorative therapy being labelled in that way or that it should be banned. I don't support affirmation only care either.

People should only transition when they have all the facts- what a transitioned life will actually be like, the risk of de-transition, the fact that it may not solve other issues. They should also receive full consideration of co-morbidities, other conditions, vulnerabilities. Finally, the process shouldn't be rushed.

However, to me this only makes me more sure that personal autonomy is important. What I see TRA's doing is removing the autonomy of trans people, removing their ability to get all the facts, removing their ability to come to their own decision about a transition. They have politicised the doctor-patient relationship so that the choice isn't really a choice, it's more a predetermined outcome.

And yes, I do think some de-transitioners have been victims here.

But I still think we live in an imperfect world. As others have pointed out doctors get things wrong, medicine moves on all the time, the world changes around you and we all end up having regrets- sometimes very serious ones.

So we have to put our trust in the best option we have for advice- trained medical professionals and scientists. We have to accept that the advice night still not be right and the choices we make carry risk. And we really have to make sure that as adults we keep our autonomous decision making- that we have that final veto over the things that effect us.

So, whilst I agree with you, I also agree with the opposite pov, that some people should be allowed to transition if that is what is best for them. The final choice, as long as they are capable of making it and all the relevant advice has been given, should sit with the individual. They might make the wrong choice, but they have the best chance imo of knowing what's best for them and making the right choice. No-one else knows us better than we know ourselves, and other people often have their own agendas which may not be what is best for us, even if they mean well.

As to where the line is, I honestly don't know, I would hate to be an individual having to make that choice, or the medical professional supporting them. Like you, I don't think it is necessarily in the right place right now, but I also wouldn't set it so far in the opposite direction that it removed real choice but in a different way- so that it was almost predetermined that you wouldn't transition.

I understand that you probably won't agree with the conclusion I've come to on this, but hopefully there's a logic to how I got there. I also hope this wasn't so long that you've long since died of boredom reading it!

I also agree with the opposite pov, that some people should be allowed to transition if that is what is best for them.

Has anyone on this thread said that an adult who has had their comorbities properly and exhaustively assessed and then properly treated who then makes the choice to transition medically should not be allowed to? I would be surprised, but I am not about to read back all the posts.

And I mean, allowed to transition but not to be allowed to be treated as the opposite sex when sex does in fact matter?

Plus, I don't mean removing the need for the GRC to be based on a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. So, if you mean, you agree that the diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be abandoned to get a GRC, then here we will certainly disagree because of the legal implications of this certificate at this time.

@MagpiePi has nailed how it has happened.
Of course it's bollocks, race is much more fluid than sex, but what the (white) men with power, billionaires and medical industry want, they will have.

What I can't understand is why as it is so blindingly obvious that it's as outrageous for men to identify as women as it is for white people to identify as black, people can't see it.

There is a push for women's oppression, and relative physical weakness compared to men, in the West to be minimised I suppose, so it doesn't seem like the oppressor identifying as the oppressed. Every other movie and TV drama has women beating up men twice their size, and committing male pattern violence. Narrative is that women are as strong and as violent as men.

I don't know whether anyone has said that either, I was just trying to explain my own opinion not put words in the mouth of you or anyone else.

I don't think I agree that a medical diagnosis should be abandoned for getting a GRC. What criteria would be used otherwise? I don't see why you would need a GRC without the diagnosis TBH.

With regards to single sex spaces, I think you'd mostly find agreement from me. I certainly don't think TW should be in a space like a DV shelter or a rape crisis. I am a bit torn on purely social spaces like a women's book club or the WI and I'm also a bit torn on toilets- I used to not mind at all, but I hate mixed sex toilets and now trans seems to mean people without GRCs as well I'm a lot less happy about it.

Several people with varying success rates have tried to identify as a different age. I think the most famous one, I'm not allowed to say who or my post/whole thread gets deleted, is now or was recently identifying as 6 years old girl. So if transage is real ha, then that person could potentially go to school with your child. Is that ok?
Blair white has done a vid on YouTube Aug 2019.

Thanks for this very clear explanation, NecessaryScene. I hadn’t thought it through before. Very different aims, but both ’theories’ created to further an agenda, not to search for truth.

So we have to put our trust in the best option we have for advice- trained medical professionals and scientists. We have to accept that the advice night still not be right and the choices we make carry risk. And we really have to make sure that as adults we keep our autonomous decision making- that we have that final veto over the things that effect us.

These medical professionals are as bullied by the TRAs and as subject to personal bias as anyone else. If we're going to rely on this, we need to create the conditions which allow them to properly think and benefit from specialist thinking themselves. The current bully, silence and divide ethos prevents this happening, rendering much of their advice untrustworthy.

I like your argument that men cannot know what it is like to be a woman in the same way that a white person cannot know what it is like to be black....one thing I will say is that race is a much more sensitive topic than gender..so you are more likely to get people saying YOU CANT SAY/DO THAT! I was thinking more people have died over race issues then gender but then as I'm typing this im thinking hang on.... What about the millions of women who have been raped/killed over the years at the hands of men...? So where does that leave us..that it is less offensive to be trans-male than trans-female? Hmmm.....

It's because black people have said no fucking way and enough women have said yes ok for the trans brigade.

There is probably some truth to that. Women can't claim there is a united female voice on this issue, or even fake it which is what happens in many other instances.

And that seems to be the only thing that counts in oppression hierarchies.

LemonSwan makes a lot of sense, that it's politically acceptable for an oppressed group to pass "up" but not the other way round.

Which is not saying that passing "up" is safe in itself, in 1930s US being caught passing as white was dangerous for black women. The oppressors didn't like it. But it's acceptable in terms of modern racial and sexual politics.

That explains why trans people always have to be seen as the most oppressed group. That way it's always politically OK for transwomen to pass as women unchallenged in all situations, even if they are male they are never passing "down" from privilege but always "up" from oppression.

Intersectional feminism ought to have something useful to say about that. But it doesn't.

If someone is transgender and happy (and not harming anyone else in doing so) accept it

If a male-bodied individual identifying as a woman comes into a female space, and women don't want it, is that acceptable?

If someone is transracial and happy, (and not harming anyone else in doing so) accept it

If a white man identifying as black takes a scholarship meant for a black person, is that acceptable?

"Live and let live" is lovely in theory, but in practise there needs to be some accountability.

Well yes, and it's not just individual men. It's women being oppressed e.g. Afghanistan, no right to work or an education, Iran; oppressive, USA, Poland, Malta; no right of autonomy over bodily choices, abortion. UK; all female dominated industries (apart from modelling and porn) pay less, in many cases much less, in spite of equal pay legislation. Women not allowed to drive in Saudi (?). New medical procedures are often more tested on women; e.g. lobotomy. Women in UK until very recently were the property of men. Convictions for rape in UK between 1 and 2 %, making it basically legal. Men in UK can walk away from babies they make with zero repercussions. The list of women's subjugation and inequality is endless. Women cannot 'identify' out of their oppression, and conversely transgender women in the UK would immediately revert to male if they dropped into Afghanistan right now.

I think transgender is worse actually. I’m certain whites women can relate more to black woman having the same biology than men can relate to women!

So the webberleys who have both been to tribunals? For just giving out puberty blockers at whim almost?

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3598778-Dr-Helen-and-Dr-Mike-Webberley-matters-of-public-record

There are more threads but I'm short on time to list them all.

Mr webberleys tribunal stated more than once that a five minute online consult with no need for tests or more consults was not enough to prescribe puberty blockers or testosterone or "hrt" yet he did just that in so many cases he was struck off.

If we were talking 18 year old I'd agree, officially your of age, you can make these decisions. And yes we all live with regrets. But so many young (younger than 18 for certain) girls making themselves sterile and for what?
The main point is, there used to be around *90 girls a year with gender dysphoria. Now that figure jumped to thousands.

• I saw this number years ago when I first started this journey, it was averaged out I think, or maybe literal. But the point stands from 1989 til recently around 90 girls a year were helped at tavistock, it's a huge increase and no real reason found as to why.

But I still think we live in an imperfect world.

This is a form of imperfection that is clearly identified and preventable, and it is currently affecting young gay, lesbian and autistic teens. They are being sterilised. You know, like good old eugenics.

I cannot feel blasé about this.