Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

[BiologicalKitty]

I've recently had some "check in" conversations with my teens - one at a local high-school, one at a local college. Both have trans and/or nonbinary friends.

My teens agree biological sex is unchangeable, that gender stereotypes are harmful, but are surrounded by the rhetoric that it's only right, and only kind, to respect pronouns.

This has led to some odd conversations about their friends, while they admit it is really confusing. I've been blunt and asked them to tell me their friends' biological sexes before sleepovers etc, because I need to know the full landscape of their activities. They are OK with using clear language with me, which is good.

I'm finding it incredibly eye opening, realising there are teens who shrug and say, yeah, I know you can't change sex, and for me, I know I can do whatever I like and that doesn't change my body, but I'll still respect my friends' pronouns and jump through these mental hoops because it's actually pretty normal and some people aren't comfortable being a boy or girl.

Do you think this is an improvement? I'm not sure. I don't like the confusion that changed pronouns causes (a schoolmate who identifies as male but went through a teen pregnancy...) and I think it's a massive potential safeguarding issue (see above re sleepovers).

Strange new world.

I can’t blame them.

As a teenager, you don’t want to invite the judgement and scrutiny that woukd come along with stating ‘transphobic’ beliefs outloud.

Yes, I think that's probably the case. My older teen said she won't be introducing me to some of her friends because I'm so openly terfy, but at least she's telling me about her life I guess.

I don't think it is a good idea. I saw this thread earlier

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/xg5p5j/bad_first_day_at_uni/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

and it just articulated perfectly why humouring someone to be kind isn't a kindness at all. The person writing this thread is genuinely confused why they are being treated differently to "cis" girls. I presume he's been in an echo chamber/humoured enough to believe that he can actually be a girl or woman, and then he comes face to face with reality where no one really sees him as a girl, and bam, it's traumatising for him. I think there are perhaps some situations where the trans person has their eyes open, knows they can't change sex, knows most people will see them as the sex they are, and yet still appreciates being referred to with the pronouns of the opposites sex. In that scenario, it's perhaps not harmful, but in general I think its a slippery slope to delusion.

Can completely see why as a young person though you would choose not to out yourself as gender critical in this environment.

My oldest uses correct sex pronouns when talking about pronoun people at home and switches to preferred pronouns when in the company of the pronoun people.

I heard a podcast recently in which a contributor said that it is as if we were in an occupation, the enemy forces are in power and we are the resistance, as such many of us need to be careful in how we resist and work strategically and under the radar. We are also of course surrounded by collaborators and traitors who will happily hand us over to enemy forces for their own gain.

I am absolutely happy for my teenagers to consider themselves members of the underground resistance and keep their terfiness to themselves for now. They are too young and inexperienced yet for open heroics, they can’t fully grasp what consequences may be nor do they yet have the resources needed to openly fight this battle for women and children, for reality and reason, for freedom of thought and speech.

The individual in the linked thread sounds very vulnerable: they were expecting uni to be literally magic - they can start transitioning (oh yes, they’re perplexed at being treated differently when they can only read to strangers as “guy [with long hair/a wig] in girls’ clothes”) & will find lots of “queer” friends. Despite self-reported lifelong difficulties with creating & sustaining friendships. Quite worried they’ve so openly advertised which university they’re at - I realise there are hundreds of incoming Freshers at said institution, but it worries me they’re asking if anyone’s there & wants to meet. Really hope they get signposted to student support etc asap.

They are too young and inexperienced yet for open heroics, they can’t fully grasp what consequences may be nor do they yet have the resources needed to openly fight this battle for women and children, for reality and reason, for freedom of thought and speech.

Well put.

This is another safeguarding issue @NitroNine - some of these children my teens have told me about sound very vulnerable also, and the rainbow-washing of "trans inclusive" at school has meant fuck all real life support. Just name changes on the register. When a pregnant girl identified as a boy, and her ex-boyfriend (father of the baby) started a campaign of harassment against her, did nobody ask what the hell was going on? As if. They just cheerfully changed her fucking pronouns and let her get on with it when she felt under siege and ended up having to change schools.

I think changing pronouns is problematic because it's where the obfuscation, lies and confusion starts.

However, any teen today who understands the fact that sex is more consequential in certain situations and can be clear about differentiating between sex and gender is doing pretty well. It's a massive head fuck for them to keep on top of it all, but I'm hoping that this madness can't be maintained for too much longer!

I would imagine most of our workplaces, like mine, make using preferred pronouns mandatory, so this is an issue many of us have no real choice over. I am increasingly uncomfortable using incorrectly sexed pronouns but I don't have a choice if I want to keep my job. Where possible I avoiding using pronouns at all, or use 'they'.

@Truthlikeness they is a pronoun.

I think its perfectly possible to believe that people can't change sex but still use the pronoun people prefer when referring to them. It's what most people do.

I think this is not straightforward for adults either. So not surprise it would be difficult for teens.

I worked recently over a period of time with someone who used they/them pronouns. I mostly avoided using them at all, but frankly in my job I wasn't going to be making a big fuss about it.

I also have known a transwoman through a social group I belong to for about 25 years. This person actually transitioned when I was four years old (I am middle aged now,) and has lived with female documents, etc, since then. Many people don't even know this person was born a man. The idea that I would use male pronouns or even bring it up just seems kind of pointless and even confusing.

My hope is that pushing back on this at a policy level and medically will mean that eventually we won't have many of these instances of things like RODG, and that will make dealing with whatever instances do still occur on a case by case basis much more manageable.

Not a teen but not far out of my teens.

I could not be arsed with all the drama that would arise if I purposely used correct sex pronouns for trans/NB friends (not so much from them but from “ally” friends). Fuck that. I know the future medical risks of affirming them but equally I want to have friends.

I try to just use names.

I like the ‘underground resistance’ idea! I can generally get under the radar terfery into a conversation.

I don't see any way of using sex based pronouns that isn't rude so I use preferred pronouns and I see why teenagers do. I don't harangue friends with different views from me about any issue and using sex-based pronouns with friends definitely would be haranguing. It doesn't overall change my views but maybe it will have an effect over time, it's meant to.

mobile.twitter.com/setoacnna/status/1571578453962493956?cxt=HHwWiMC80d-Rr88rAAAA

Hi, Anne 👋👋👋

You're literally the only one talking about genitals. < - This is the first mention of them on this thread, but then TRAs aren't renowned for their fondness for truth, are they?

I guess living in a fantasy plane becomes addictive. Truth is an alien concept to the TRAs.

I'm as TERFy as they come - former old-school Marxist who taught feminism in higher education for about twenty years. I now work in further education and we've started to have the whole pronoun thing here over the past couple of years.

My take on it is that I'll call my students by whatever pronoun they prefer. This doesn't compromise my beliefs or my integrity because I'm pretty confident in them and I'm still thinking: 'Yup, you're actually a boy or girl, you can't change sex but I'm going to be nice and polite to you because being a teenager is shit and I'm guessing you're struggling with something and maybe me being nice to you will help you. And maybe you'll wake up one day and realise how silly this all is.' Being kind in this instance isn't a betrayal of my ideals, but rather an acknowledgement that I have the high ground and can afford to be magnanimous.

On the other hand, I refused to put my pronouns on my e-mail signature because, as I told my boss, it's virtue-signalling crap and suggests I both believe in and support this trans nonsense when I don't. It's dangerous, homophobic bullshit and I don't want anyone thinking I support it.

Some people find it really cognitively difficult using wrong sex pronouns.

I try to avoid pronoun people for that reason and to avoid talking about them. If I need to talk about pronoun people in a situation when I can’t use correct sex pronouns then I try to avoid using pronouns at all and just stick with names.

My oldest tells me that slip ups happen most frequently at parties when the drinks are flowing. This again indicates the cognitive load required of us by pronoun people.

Wasn't a girl recently bullied out of a sixth form for voicing GC views. I think your children are sensible not to put themselves at risk of being bullied and harassed. It should be for the adults to deal with this mess.

Isn't it interesting how my concern and upset over the school's treatment of a distressed trans identified child is ignored completely by these twitterings.

FYI tweeters: safeguarding means much, much more than you seem capable of understanding. And a mother wanting to know the sex of people in a room where her daughter is sleeping is utterly banal in its normalcy.

Isn't it interesting how my concern and upset over the school's treatment of a distressed trans identified child is ignored completely by these twitterings.

So typical. In reality they couldn't care less.

I also note none of these brave warriors have ventured on here to join the debate. Perhaps they don't feel 'safe' 🙄

We're just too terrifying, probably.

I know people who identify as trans or non-binary, and while I secretly roll my eyes a bit at a few of them as it seems to be a bit faddy for some, I do tend to keep my own views to myself as I don’t want to cause any further mental anguish for someone who might be genuinely struggling.

It doesn’t harm me to have my private opinion whilst still affording people the courtesy of calling them whatever they want to be called. Deliberately ‘misgendering’ someone when they’ve told me they identify as XYZ just because it doesn’t align with my own views would be a shitty thing to do.

I've suddenly just realised why this thread is so triggering to the twitterers- they hate the idea that someone would be using preferred pronouns and yet still clearly know the person's actual sex. Yes, we all do that. It's no mystery. Everyone can tell; there's no such thing as "passing" in real life, only with filters.

Here's some research somewhere around how teens are the most cohesive age group and won't go against the status quo. They need each other more and so tend to be more sjw esque. As you age you become more individual and able to value your own opinions with out needing validation from others. Teens are hyper sensitive to judgment especially from peers. Iirc it also translates to younger people being more left leaning and becoming more centrist or conservative as they age (generally speaking! Everyone is an individual of course)

Evolutionary speaking it would have helped social groups bond and work as a team at an age when strength and fitness is good.

There's always outliers but I've certainly found age has made me more able to challenge and query the status quo! And say no... at university in the first couple of years I lived with people I eventually realised I really didn't have anything in common with because I simply needed to be in a tribe.