Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

[BiologicalKitty]

I've recently had some "check in" conversations with my teens - one at a local high-school, one at a local college. Both have trans and/or nonbinary friends.

My teens agree biological sex is unchangeable, that gender stereotypes are harmful, but are surrounded by the rhetoric that it's only right, and only kind, to respect pronouns.

This has led to some odd conversations about their friends, while they admit it is really confusing. I've been blunt and asked them to tell me their friends' biological sexes before sleepovers etc, because I need to know the full landscape of their activities. They are OK with using clear language with me, which is good.

I'm finding it incredibly eye opening, realising there are teens who shrug and say, yeah, I know you can't change sex, and for me, I know I can do whatever I like and that doesn't change my body, but I'll still respect my friends' pronouns and jump through these mental hoops because it's actually pretty normal and some people aren't comfortable being a boy or girl.

Do you think this is an improvement? I'm not sure. I don't like the confusion that changed pronouns causes (a schoolmate who identifies as male but went through a teen pregnancy...) and I think it's a massive potential safeguarding issue (see above re sleepovers).

Strange new world.

What utter nonsense. It has NEVER been polite to use pronouns in front of the person you are referring to. Use their name if they are there and a pronoun if they’re not.

Read it again slowly.

It's not polite to use the pronoun /first/.
/She/'s chairing the next meeting.

But perfectly polite and normal to use a pronoun the second time the person is referred to.
Emma is chairing the next meeting so let her know if you have anything for the agenda.

Repeating the name would sound contrived.
Emma is chairing the next meeting so let Emma know if you have anything for the agenda.

It's a workaround some people are using if they don't want to lie but also don't want to use a pronoun that will upset someone. But it is obviously a workaround.

This is so obvious.
I don't know why some people say pronouns are only used when the person isn't present.

I think that's true but of course it does sound more contrived to say 'her' to refer to a man so just use the person's name again if they are someone who has internalised gender stereotypes to the degree that they wish they were the opposite sex.

For example, Sheila says to Fred in Brian's presence, "When Brian says he's handsome, he's joking." She doesn't say, "When Brian says Brian's handsome, Brian's joking."

The reason we avoid using pronouns in the presence of someone rather than their name is that it demonstrates you are talking about them rather than with them. In your example Sheila and Fred are discussing Brian in his presence. Can you think of another one where that’s the case? I’m intrigued. I had a very manners conscious upbringing so the mildest response to using she in the presence of the person being referred to would have been Who’s SHE the cats mother?

5zeds, when people say that 'who's she the cat's mother' thing they are talking about a specific sort of rudeness where someone refers to them as she without first naming her.

Who gave you that lovely cake? She did. (Child points to grandma.) Rude. Who gave you that lovely cake? Grandma did, she baked it this morning. Polite.

Yes that’s my understanding too @thirdfiddle but I wouldn’t use she in the second sentence.

Who's "they", the cat's parent?

What would you say? thirdfiddle's example is typical of people I know.

Going along with it where it matters (in public) is just as bad as actually supporting it.

But I guess not using the right pronouns would make them outcasts.

Oh how ever did we manage to go through school without ever talking about pronouns.

Repeating the name would sound contrived.
Emma is chairing the next meeting so let Emma know if you have anything for the agenda.

It's a workaround some people are using if they don't want to lie but also don't want to use a pronoun that will upset someone. But it is obviously a workaround.

A workaround is what it is, but I've become adroit at avoiding sex-based pronouns which I now do in the workplace as a matter of course.

'The next meeting is being chaired by Emma, who is your contact if you have anything for the agenda'.

'Emma is chairing the next meeting so will be your contact if you have anything for the agenda'.

This kills three birds with one stone: you avoid inadvertently offending someone, you retain your own principles, and you avoid being disciplined should you (invariably) accidentally slip up. I cannot knowingly 'misgender' someone. It's against my organization's written policy and I could be disciplined, or at worst fired for it.

It's a pain in the arse to start with and you'll slip up, but in time it becomes habit. The alternative is taking all the crap that comes with this. Who needs it?

😹

“Who gave you that lovely cake? Grandma did, she baked it this morning.”

Who gave you that lovely cake? Grandma did, Grandma baked it this morning

or more likely

Who gave you that lovely cake? Grandma did, you baked it this morning didn’t you Grandma?

encouraging the Grandma to speak for herself rather than be talked about.

The first version not using pronouns I would look at Grandma when I said her name.

Brilliant 🤣

In my experience, most teenagers ive spoken to and know, think the trans thing is ridiculous, but they think its polite to use someones preferred pronouns. They dont tend to believe it.
I seem to know more millenials in their 20s that believe in it all unquestioningly

This.

I do this too, restructuring sentences to avoid pronouns.

It is a bit of work at first but soon becomes easy enough and doesn’t jar in the way that using incorrect pronouns does because it is still grammatically correct and doesn’t make me feel like a hypocrite or sell out for going against my beliefs or that I’m submitting to power, doffing my cap and tugging my forelock, bowing and scraping to the new elite/sacred caste.

Yes, more creative pronoun avoiding is possible and I would probably go that way rather than lie because I'm a terrible, unconvincing liar. But no it isn't in any way rude or unusual to refer to someone using a pronoun in their presence, as long as you use their name first.

Another one I had recently was minuting a meeting. Peppered with pronouns, everyone including myself talked about in the third person and the person being talked about reads it. Fortunately so far nobody in my meetings with unexpected pronouns but I'm sure it's a matter of time.

Im firmly underground in my own resistance but I do wonder about the consequences of our young people feeling that their reasonable (not to mention true and indisputable) beliefs need to be so well hidden from the world.
Not that I see an alternative!