Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

[BiologicalKitty]

I've recently had some "check in" conversations with my teens - one at a local high-school, one at a local college. Both have trans and/or nonbinary friends.

My teens agree biological sex is unchangeable, that gender stereotypes are harmful, but are surrounded by the rhetoric that it's only right, and only kind, to respect pronouns.

This has led to some odd conversations about their friends, while they admit it is really confusing. I've been blunt and asked them to tell me their friends' biological sexes before sleepovers etc, because I need to know the full landscape of their activities. They are OK with using clear language with me, which is good.

I'm finding it incredibly eye opening, realising there are teens who shrug and say, yeah, I know you can't change sex, and for me, I know I can do whatever I like and that doesn't change my body, but I'll still respect my friends' pronouns and jump through these mental hoops because it's actually pretty normal and some people aren't comfortable being a boy or girl.

Do you think this is an improvement? I'm not sure. I don't like the confusion that changed pronouns causes (a schoolmate who identifies as male but went through a teen pregnancy...) and I think it's a massive potential safeguarding issue (see above re sleepovers).

Strange new world.

Hadn't read full thread.

Of course people tell white lies all the time. I'd probably use preferred pronouns to someones face out if basic politeness but it would impress me more if they didn't give a fuck what pronoun was used.

I think when you've had kids of your own and dealt with the demands of toddler / preschool years you find it wearing to have to to pretendies with grown adults too.

Everyone can tell; there's no such thing as "passing" in real life, only with filters.

See, this is why I'm not convinced it's 'kind' or 'courteous' to use preferred pronouns. Ultimately it's supporting an illusion that can't be sustained.

And for the ones who buy into it, who believe they can in all meaningful ways change sex, how must it feel to find out that you can't?

That you almost certainly won't pass and though people are cheerleading TWAW and TMAM now, that may not apply when it comes to your dating pool (I'm looking at you LOJ)? The tales out there from detransitioners are heartbreaking.

Of course teens are a complicated question, but I feel comments like this are terribly misguided

I don’t want to cause any further mental anguish for someone who might be genuinely struggling

Actually apologies, I have misrepresented myself there.

The comment itself isn't misguided, but the whole idea that it's the kind, courteous thing to use preferred pronouns and to not do so is 'shitty' is, I feel.

With teens it's more complicated and the whole thing has gone so far now, I'm not sure what the best thing to do, but with adults, I don't think this is a kinder approach in the long run

I keep thinking about Pronouns Are Rohypnol that I read many moons ago. I won't use them, as I know it is lying. I don't know if this is mixed up with my religious beliefs, or whether I am just a black and white thinker.

As the OP says, it's a lie, all of it. Hardly anyone actually passes. Nice of the Twits to set up a straw man implying a normal bit of parenting is creepy, but encouraging young girls to cut healthy tissue from their body is perfectly normal.

The best they will get from me is a they/them, but where possible I will only ever use their name because if I am talking to them they are already in the room, and I don't need pronouns.

The best they will get from me is a they/them

Im leaning towards this myself. I'm much more comfortable with the rejection of one's own sexed pronouns than with the appropriation of someone else's.

And this also has the advantage of not helping to corroborating the TWAW/TMAM untruth.

The article is very thought provoking, thanks for posting.

Its important to think through the implications of what we do, rather than just fall back on 'it's a courtesy'.

Language matters hugely

It was first written on a thread here by Barracker but mn deleted it.

We seem to be able to link to it now though.

I think I am able to use preferred pronouns in most circumstances. I'm not a good liar, they'd be able to see it was a lie, but so is a lot of politeness.
If pushed too hard I will not. Cannot. Am not capable of. For example, frequent changes; blatant trolling (giant fetish boob teacher); made up pronouns; and gaslighting young kids about their sex.

I have this problem with my own teens. My eldest ds is dating someone who identifies as a man - my ds has autism and his mental health has declined massively in the time they've been together and I'm sure that the cognitive dissonance of referring to their partner as 'he' instead of 'she' is having a detrimental effect. His best friend has now said they identify as 'she'.

These are kids we've known for years. I don't want to alienate my kids so I play along as best I can by using 'they' or their chosen names but it's not always easy to used correctly sexed pronouns when you risk your relationships. I too have had conversations with my lot and we and they understand you cannot change sex. They understand that I believe gender ideology has major flaws that have the potential to negatively impact 50% of the population but they're young and protected and can't yet see the wider implications. It's a difficult place to be.

We had actual tears from one teenager because she had gone out to buy clothes with a new and unmistakably female friend, had happily shared a changing room with new unmistakably female friend, and then found out new friend was nonbinary and went by 'them'.

I'm not sure even the child herself knew coherently whether she was upset that she'd undressed in front of someone of 'different gender', or whether she thought that she'd inadvertently insulted the other girl by knowing she was a girl, or... what, really.

God they make their own lives unnecessarily complicated.

New college, and neutral American name, incidentally -- though I'm still wondering how on earth they'd got to the changing room stage without swapping pronouns, given the zeitgeist.

No. You're asking other people to lie to make you comfortable. That's not on. You can't expect the world to change to fit you.

I think its perfectly possible to believe that people can't change sex but still use the pronoun people prefer when referring to them.

Think through the implications of doing that though. On one level you are signalling that you believe they can change sex.

It is difficult with teens and the social contagion aspect we all know is effectively governing this.

My two know, and have always known since the point where they have been old enough to understand, that there are two sexes and you can't change your sex. Like the majority of us with secondary age DCs, they'll know someone who is saying they are the opposite sex and most people I believe are being what they think is polite while not truly believing the pretence is real.

Whether they are doing the right thing in pretending to believe this is debatable. As a previous poster highlighted, it likely isn't actually a long term positive move to endorse something like this as it will end up with a rather rude awakening when entering 'the real world' when it becomes obvious that politeness does not equal reality.

I work with a trans identified individual who I think accepts reluctantly that people don't believe them to have changed sex (although does try to police the language). I have occasionally been boxed in by the situation and had to use 'she' because of the context but I mostly use their chosen name instead. I don't want to lie.

I respect pronouns on the basis that others respect my right not to be called cis.

I don't mind people believing what they believe may roll my eyes internally but it's when they start telling me to believe what they believe, problem

So long as the pronoun thing is not enforced collectively I can live with it.

Bigger battles to be fought here

I’m a middle aged woman. I don’t believe anyone can change sex. I believe the law should only recognize females as women. I still do my best to use preferred pronouns.

It's all about control. An attempt to control others when they feel they have little control - over their parents, their bodies, the world.

Obviously in a perfect world we'd be teaching them about the concept of locus of control, because to have an external locus of control is to be extremely vulnerable.

Also, we should always interrogate our own drive to be nice or kind.

If people don't believe that it's possible to change sex, then why they are allowing their language to suggest that they do think it's possible?

Because that's what using opposite sex pronouns does. Signal to ourselves and others that this is what's going on.

The article linked above is worth reading

I cannot be persuaded that colluding in a lie is the kind thing to do. It only encourages the trans fashionistas to go on thinking they are special and must have their every whim indulged, while doing nothing for the tiny minority who have genuine psychological issues about their bodies and need serious help. It is not helpful for this small minority to be swallowed up among the narcissistic trans ideology.

I just don't think in practical terms there's any realistic other answer than to use preferred pronouns unless I'm willing to make a MAJOR stink, which I'm not. If I am talking to 2 very close friends, A and B, about their daughter C, who now uses he, and I insist on using she, who benefits? They've been struggling with this for far longer than I have. I've known C since she was a little girl and I love her dearly, but nothing like as long or as much as they do, obviously. C is an adult now (just) and is now Mr D. I've employed D to do jobs for me round the house and her bank account is in the name of Mr D. Do I refuse to pay her or what? Insist on calling her C even if she asks me not to?

I am, it's true, reminded of Quakers refusing to use titles in the 18th century and referring to the King as Friend George. I'm not that brave. I am open to the idea of using Mx and they/them for everyone but it's not yet automatic.

That's the reason I will not lie. Or collude in self-deception.

I won’t do it.

DS1 had a girlfriend two years ago who was ‘nonbinary’ and went by a made up Greek God name and they pronouns. I fucked it up once and she refused to come to our house ever again. There was a distance involved so it meant DS spent every weekend there.

In the haranguing that followed from DS he called her ‘her’ and ‘she’ in almost every instance. I pointed out the ridiculousness, she had cut him off from us for this very same mistake.

It’s teenage tantrums in almost every case. I refuse to engage.

Oh and interestingly he wasn’t going to Uni; definitely not, no plans to. She dumped him and he suddenly accepted his offer. Controlling little cow.

My DD is GC. She uses the pronouns her friends request because the fall out from not doing so just isn't worth it right now.
She's a bit conflicted by this but I think her need to fit in is actually more important. Some of them have already changed 'back' so it's not been a hill to die on.
Many younger teens are trying for size identities etc as they figure themselves out. In itself that's nothing new, but the policing of language is tiresome.

Ooh just noticed I'm not allowed to see that person's posts.