Teen terfs, still respecting pronouns of their friends

[BiologicalKitty]

I've recently had some "check in" conversations with my teens - one at a local high-school, one at a local college. Both have trans and/or nonbinary friends.

My teens agree biological sex is unchangeable, that gender stereotypes are harmful, but are surrounded by the rhetoric that it's only right, and only kind, to respect pronouns.

This has led to some odd conversations about their friends, while they admit it is really confusing. I've been blunt and asked them to tell me their friends' biological sexes before sleepovers etc, because I need to know the full landscape of their activities. They are OK with using clear language with me, which is good.

I'm finding it incredibly eye opening, realising there are teens who shrug and say, yeah, I know you can't change sex, and for me, I know I can do whatever I like and that doesn't change my body, but I'll still respect my friends' pronouns and jump through these mental hoops because it's actually pretty normal and some people aren't comfortable being a boy or girl.

Do you think this is an improvement? I'm not sure. I don't like the confusion that changed pronouns causes (a schoolmate who identifies as male but went through a teen pregnancy...) and I think it's a massive potential safeguarding issue (see above re sleepovers).

Strange new world.

I can't think of many circumstances in which social contact with a transperson would need me to state what sex I believed them to be. I thought we were talking about what pronouns one might choose to use?

I thought we were talking about what pronouns one might choose to use?

We are. That is what pronouns do, indicate what sex you think the person is. The article posted upthread is very informative on this, go have a read of it.

I've read it, it's a good article. But I've never found the need to be that absolute in dealing with the (few) transpeople I've encountered in daily life.

Manners will help. Don’t use pronouns in front of the person you are talking about.

I don’t agree that children can’t be heroic, but confess to have told mine to be careful.

In regards to the university reddit, this is really when reality hits.

Schools and medical professionals have had to affirm the child, all school pupils are threatened with punishment for misgendering. No one is allowed to say that the emperor has no clothes on.

Suddenly at university, with the misconception that it will be a woke place, when in fact some noisy students make it seem like that publicly, but the majority won't be because it will be a true reflection of society. Men are not going to be falling over themselves for a transgender girl, and will probably try to avoid that person altogether.

Some of the other responses are still in denial, that it is the fault of parents that students are not sexually interested in feminine presenting men, and that once students are given time they will see the light and suddenly treat all trans people as their desired sex.

Social media is not reality.

I’m a terf by a lot of peoples standards but I respect the pronouns of trans people. Why wouldn’t you? It’s just words. If a friend changed their first name would you refuse to accept it because it’s not the facts on their birth certificate? Non of the real trans people I know deny biological reality they know they are trans and I’m happy to respect their right to live how they want. We need legislation so we can protect ourselves against the odd weirdo but most people are just people.

But I've never found the need to be that absolute in dealing with the (few) transpeople I've encountered in daily life

At an individual level, that sounds reasonable, but in aggregate, the messages we are communicating to people are not factually true. Then reality hits and the whole thing comes crashing down. These young people are being set up for a fall.

Why wouldn’t you? It’s just words.

Have a read of the article linked above and you'll start to see.

Can you be forced to use incorrect pronouns?

Before even clicking on that link, I knew it would be Ann Coates. A deeply, deeply unpleasant person.

pronouns are not a neutral act.

dave in accounts announces he’s transitioning, wants to be known as Davina and be she/her - why not it’s the kind thing to do right?

davina presents as a stereotypical woman but is obviously still a man. They know want to use the women’s toilets - after all they’re a she now aren’t they? There are 2 Muslim women on the staff team who feel uncomfortable about this fir religious reasons but the company is full on TWAW & colleagues don’t back them up telling them to be kind

Davina has joined the woman’s network designed to increase women’s promotion prospects - after all they’re she/her so it’s ok right. At the end of the year Davina takes one of two spaces on an internal course for women from across the UK. It means a biological woman misses out but Davina is she/her so it’s fine right?

once you start calling a man she/her & affirming that they’re a woman because they ‘feel’ like one then where do you draw the line and more importantly how? I mean you’ve spent all this time affirming them

lying that a man is a woman is not a neutral act, it actively harms women. I won’t do it

It’s just words.

'Woman' is just a word. What does it matter if it has come to mean anything?

Also, words are how people are controlled.

You can be coerced. For example, if you don't use them and then are reported to HR at work, or thrown off a course.

That Reddit post is heartbreaking. The poor lad really seems to believe he genuinely is a girl. He has so many more disappointments ahead of him. God damn the adults who have led children into this misery.

I do not use pronouns, preferred or otherwise. I use names. I will use any name you choose as I don't believe collections of letters should be gendered. In reality calling a man Daisy or Dave is no different, much as how I don't see pink as a gendered colour.

As for the youth, it is changing in senior schools.

Control the way people speak,control the way people think.

Yes, like that terribly sad recent video of a young woman who fully and irreversibly transitioned to appear as male ( and does visually look male) and eight years after transitioning is basically crying about how desperately lonely they are, and they are unable to make male friendships ( presumably because she isn’t able to interact or connect with men as a man). And why didn’t anyone tell her how lonely it was as a man, and she desperately misses woman to woman friendships.

I saw another video by a young woman two years into testosterone transition and looking male who also said they had made no male friends ( as a man) and was realizing that they could not play football now, ( their passion) as the male game is so aggressive, and it was difficult for them to get a straight girlfriend (vulva still in tact).

These young people are being sold a lie that being a man or woman is about superficial surgery and hormones and inner feelings and nothing else. And then finding the rest of the world, outside of the lobby groups, doesn’t agree.

Having said that, it’s not up to teens to change this. It’s the adults running the lobby groups I blame for selling this lie.

This was such a thoughtful thread from nearly a year ago. I wonder how much things have changed? There's certainly a greater awareness of the harm social transitioning can do but I suspect the atmosphere in schools is still as intimidating for those who believe in facts rather than fantasies. And do twitterers still obsessively monitor this board ? Maybe not as much since the
"the resistance" as PomegranateOfPersephone, calls it, has broken out into much of the mainstream media?

And as this is about teenagers, here's a clinical psychologist's take on the harms of agreeing with a teenager that they're the opposite sex to reality:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/

I mangle language so as not to use he/she pronouns at all if I can avoid doing so. It's become almost like a game.

So in an ice breaker I might say: 'this is Sarah, who comes from Stratford, has a cat, and whose favourite fruit is bananas'.

And yeah, the whole game is bananas. But I no longer want to compromise on my principles; had enough of humouring this nonsense. No matter what you do, it's never enough. On the other hand, if I 'misgender' someone or use pronouns they don't like (it's hard enough remembering everyone's name at the beginning of every year, much less other identifying information) I could be disciplined or fired for it.

Given a refusal to use someone's stipulated pronouns is against my organization's policy, I try to get around it without using the 'hot potato' ones.

As for xi/xer - well, fuck that.

Interestingly though, I saw the barbie movie today. From the second I saw the TW barbie it was 100% clear to me that this was a man. He had long hair and was slim and wore a pink frock but of course that didn't make him look like a woman. My husband though, didn't notice the glaringly obvious. I didn't know there was a TW taking another female part in a film so I wasn't looking out for one. I'm a CSA survivor and I do think that's made me more quickly tuned into when men are around because those are the ones I've had to watch out for. OH has safe privilege. So I guess what I'm saying is that some of these TW may actually belive they pass when to women at least they really don't.

@literalviolence as soon as TW Barbie opened their mouth it was clear they were a man. I thought it would bother me more than it did. It was pretty obvious there was a male amongst females, and just showed that you can have long hair and great makeup but your maleness will always be there.

I admire your teens. They have found a way of negotiating acceptance of their friends without denying biological sex doesn't exist or is irrelevant. It's just a form of code switching isn't it? Young people are much better at it than middle aged people like me.

I also instantly clocked Trans Barbie - watched with my DD.
My DD is in secondary school now and says half her form would use they/them pronouns if asked to - and she would but knows full well about biological sex etc - she describes ‘non binary’ identifying students as ‘the special kids’ or ‘attention seeking’ ones.
but apparently most kids roll their eyes at the special kids.
She also knows that if she brings a special friend home that I will not pander to being told to use special pronouns.

I am a middle aged woman - and would never use pronouns dictated to me that are not biological reality. Of course they wouldn’t generally arise if I’m speaking to someone face to face as I’d use ‘you’ or their name.
I liked the Megyn Kelly YouTube clip explaining why she refuses to pander to pronouns. Says everything I think.

Sure. Thanks for the advice. When I refer to someone I've known all their life and much of mine in the third person to someone else in the same room, and I use the sex-based pronouns I and everyone else have used for decades, it offends someone else who has known them for two or three years. This is entirely my fault because the habit of a lifetime can be relearned in an instant to suit fragile young people who think they can tell me what's morally right. Any ideas of respecting old people like me aren't worth anything any more, because trans people are the most marginalised and no-one else's struggles or feelings matter in the slightest. We have to conform to the zeitgeist, use language as it has been used for the last 5 minutes, apologise profusely if we fail to do so, both for our nasty use of language as understood for 95% of our lifetime and for our wrongthink in not accepting trans ideology. We must affirm and validate a lie and a delusion or we are transphobic bigots.

The TW Barbie was so clearly a man in a dress. As PP said, it shows that long hair and make up doesn't fool people. They seemed no different than any other man to me TBH. I'd be fascinated to know whether those people who actually think he looked like a man also think I do because I'm currently wearing denim dungarees and my hair's pretty short. I think it's massive misogyny for a man to ask anyone to call him she and I won't be coerced to participate in my own oppression in this way. Any man who expects me to pretend he's a woman is a problem. If you want to be a TW (i.e. a man who wishes he were a woman) then OK. If it makes you feel better for me to effectively call you a 'man who wishes he were a woman' than just a man, I can try and go with that. But take it further and whether you see it or not, you're part of the problem.