Men in women's changing rooms

[Moggyd]

Just been into Marks and Spencer's changing rooms and there was a man sat outside the cubicle waiting for his partner. Right next to the big mirror where you come out and look. I didn't feel comfortable at all and wouldn't come out of the cubicle to show my friend the dress. I spoke to the member of staff and she said it was a recent change and men can go into the what was ladies changing rooms now because a few men have kicked off recently when refused entry. I feel pretty angry about this. Interestingly there was a sticker inside my friend's changing room as attached. Not put there by Marks. What do others think?

next time im out i will take my sharpie pen and visit the changing rooms lets all do it might make a dent in the collective mind

My response is to insecure retail changing rooms is make huge online orders where I try things on at home and send the majority of it back to them. Their loss.

Right, so two woman are in the female changing rooms. A male is in there. One is not ok with it, the other lady using the changing rooms is fine with it. Who's opinion trumps the others?

The female not cool with it, obviously. The other lady is fine either way and the male shouldn't be in there anyway, it's a female space. So I'm sorry if you think I'm arrogant but I don't think you've thought this through beyond 'my opinion is as valid as yours'.

It's called critical thinking and empathy.

If males are allowed in the female changing area there is absolutely no point to having a private area outside the changing rooms. The cubicles might as well open out onto the shop.

The practical upshot of all this is as seen: males of all identities now feel fully entitled to use women's spaces and to have no respect or care for how any female is affected by it. Which in practical terms excludes females, advances misogyny and normalises male supremacism, decreases inclusion in actual practice and makes it clear to those women that they're unwelcome.

Bravo those who enabled that. <slow hand clap> How Kind. How Diverse. How tolerant. How Woke.

@Abracadabra12345

I was looking at the bras in M & S and an older man was standing in front of the ones I wanted to check out. He was with his wife but it was annoying

I think now I am older I am going to start being more assertive. There was a man standing in front of a display I wanted to look at in the summer. I just needs some pants - I said excuse me' & he moved but was still in the way so I waited and he said 'oh I seem to be in the way' so I said 'yes well you are in the way and in the ladies underwear section'. I'm going to query next time what they are doing in there. There's never men in the ladies shoe section, and barely any in the food hall. Seemingly they all head to the underwear section 🤷🏻‍♀️

I had a glimpse into men's attitudes to women's underwear years ago from a definitely GC male friend - this was years before GC was a necessary thing or even a small cloud on the horizon. I was leafing through a catalogue to find the thermals, and passing through a bra section he spotted it and said "What are you looking at that for?" as if I were looking at porn. I had to explain that it was perfectly normal for women to look at women's underwear! But that instant reaction was deeply surprising.
I have noticed that both M&S and John Lewis put their lingerie close to the entrances, so one can't reach the food hall or the computers without running the gamut of brightly coloured flimsies. (I'm going to have to stop going there, aren't I?)

As a direct result of the M&S policy of allowing men into the women’s changing rooms, a woman got flashed at in the Exeter store. Women’s changing rooms, man took his underwear off and made sure she saw him.

Unfortunately, because the offence of indecent exposure requires proof of intent and because it is legitimate for a person to be undressed in a changing rooms, it is almost impossible to prosecute the offence committed in that space( if the police were going to be even remotely interested but that’s another story).

If out in public, where everyone is fully dressed, a man exposes himself, it is easy to prove intent to distress. In the changing rooms it is not.

Thanks M&S, this is a green light for flashers in their stores. Flashing is also known to be a gateway offence for rape and murder.

As a direct result of the M&S policy of allowing men into the women’s changing rooms, a woman got flashed at in the Exeter store. Women’s changing rooms, man took his underwear off and made sure she saw him.

The detail on that story makes it worse.

It was a young woman (late teens/early 20s) working in the Exeter M&S - a part-time/Saturday job.

So she was sexually harassed in her place of work. And M&S policies, as well as general ideas in retail sales that "the customer is always right" compounded this.

And let's be clear, "flashing" is a sexual crime - it's abuse; it's harassment. And, as @RichardBarrister says, it's well known in the criminal justice system that it's a gateway crime to more serious sexual crimes.

Jesus.

I understand from someone unfortunate enough to work for M & S that they are having to work very hard to keep their name out of the press in relation to incidents of indecent exposure and secret filming of women in their mixed sex changing rooms. Much like the NHS who denied the rape of a woman because they defined the transwoman responsible as a woman.
Using postcodes rather than the name of the store, not taking responsibility for calling the police unless the woman is insistent etc. It's worth women who are targeted in this way being insistent that the incident is reported to the police and using the name of the store in any witness statement.

Grim. Men in changing rooms makes clothes shopping much less enjoyable :(

Quite.

It is not that this 'never happens' - it happens a lot.

It's just vigorously suppressed and covered up as negative publicity that would be called 'transphobia' in that it would turn the general public's awareness to a) that this happens and b) this is NOT in the best interests of females

And much better that women are secretly abused and no one knows and does anything about it than anyone should say 'no' to males.

Anyone still thinking that 'male supremacism' is over the top?

Link this too to the familiar refrain (join in, we all know the words) "If you're assaulted or harassed (or raped) you can always call the police".

Hollow laugh.

Using postcodes rather than the name of the store, not taking responsibility for calling the police unless the woman is insistent etc. It's worth women who are targeted in this way being insistent that the incident is reported to the police and using the name of the store in any witness statement.

This bears repeating.

I don't suppose it's Tweetable ...?

I don't shop at M&S but can I suggest that if you encounter this, you chuck all the clothes on the floor and leave, or if you can, 'kick off' yourself, why should only men get away with this? Also, who the hell are these pathetic women who need to have their husband with them in the changing room? (apart from the disabled who may need someone with them).

No doubt yes they are fobbing you off because it's online. How on earth would they force any female shop assistant to see off these men? I know I wouldn't want to do it.

Vote with your feet, it’s the only way they’ll understand that women are fed up with this. If our opinion and feelings are irrelevant for them, we will take our business elsewhere.

I did a "trial" run in M & S recently. Took a handful of bras to changing room and asked assistant to confirm they were female only changing rooms. She said they were "usually".

Long conversation which ended with her saying she wouldn't let any male person in while I was there. (I then had to go in and pretend I was trying on bras).

An assistant came in and we had a discussion. She says that some men are forcing their way in and they feel powerless. She said they'd asked management to put up "Female" changing room signs (these were in the lingerie dept) and THE MANAGEMENT OF MARKS AND SPENCER SAID THIS WAS DISCRIMINATION.

Marks and Spencer hate women.

In our house we call them Marks of Spunkers

If I were that poor employee who was flashed, I would be suing my employer for enabling this kind of behaviour in my workplace. And going to the press.

@LemonLymanDotCom We start by ignoring a teen boy coming in to the changing rooms as perhaps he has issues and needs to be with his mother and we end with fetishist, entitled men barging in to our spaces.

Women are saying NO to men in our single sex spaces.

I don't go real life clothes shopping any more, and I agree that voting with your feet is the best option. Let's see how well these places do when their only customers are men.

@ginghamstarfish That is what I was intending to do (but then they confirmed they wouldn't let men in so I had to go and sit in a changing room and pretend to try bras on).