Men in women's changing rooms

[Moggyd]

Just been into Marks and Spencer's changing rooms and there was a man sat outside the cubicle waiting for his partner. Right next to the big mirror where you come out and look. I didn't feel comfortable at all and wouldn't come out of the cubicle to show my friend the dress. I spoke to the member of staff and she said it was a recent change and men can go into the what was ladies changing rooms now because a few men have kicked off recently when refused entry. I feel pretty angry about this. Interestingly there was a sticker inside my friend's changing room as attached. Not put there by Marks. What do others think?

@BorkledDrek agreed. And just because other people feel uncomfortable that doesn’t mean my flabber can’t be gasted at the situation. I just find it really odd. But hey ho, we’re all different I guess

How very lucky you are to feel that way.

Now may I introduce you to the many females with different life experience and feelings to you?

You can get your kit off in front of whomever you like, no one's stopping you. And other females' privacy and boundaries are not yours to set for them.

@ImherewithBoudica you are spectacularly missing my point, I’m not talking about getting kit off in front of people, and nor was the OP. She was talking about stepping out in front of the mirror in front of a man… AFTER she had got her kit off and another kit on. Stepping out FULLY DRESSED.

no one was suggesting stripping in front of strangers, you’re the only one who has raised that.

Furthermore I’m not trying to set any others boundaries, I’m just surprised that someone is uncomfortable wearing clothes in a changing room. I find that odd. That doesn’t mean I’m trying to se others boundaries or privacy. Don’t read into my post a meaning I haven’t written

@LemonLymanDotCom you are clearly not going to ever understand any of us on this thread. Your words are making me feel like I am a pathetic weak woman who doesn't want to wear a dress in front of a man. That's absolutely not it at all. I want some spaces to be just for women so they can feel safe. Spaces without a latent fear of what men can do to women who are taking their clothes off and putting new ones on. Men do not need to be around this at all. No need. So please try to have some respect for women who are uncomfortable with it.

Our m&s has a male member of staff working in the fitting rooms. It doesn't bother me personally but I'm still against men in female spaces.

You find it odd that other women have different feelings and life experiences than you, and your posts are shaming them for not being like you.

That is what you are saying.

Give over @ImherewithBoudica, I’m not ‘shaming’ anyone, I’m just expressing my opinion. If you feel shamed then that’s on you.

and if that’s what you’re saying, that by expressing a difference of feeling or experiences that I am ‘shaming’ them, then surely you are equally ‘shaming’ me, by disagreeing with me.

I agree, people do have different experiences and opinions, but one is not necessarily more correct than the other.

I didn't realise this change had happened. It's probably to keep the trans mob happy but other men are joining in now.

I can't bear men in the underwear department in M&S. I find it quite controlling how wives aren't able to choose their own underwear. I also have an older man standing in front of the pants I want to look at. Why do they think it's appropriate? I have no reason to feel threatened as DH is a nice person. But some women would feel threatened by them. I think underwear shopping is fairly personal.

I don't see women hovering around the men's underwear section.

It's probably to keep the trans mob happy but other men are joining in now.

Yes, exactly @converseandjeans

And feminists said this would happen - that all kinds of men would take advantage.

And we were told that this would never happen.

Given that 98% of sexual crime is committed by men, and women & girls constitute 88% of te victims of such crime. it is completely reasonable that women have spaces free from the [biological] male presence and the male gaze, particularly where our bodies are involved.

I've stopped even entering M&S shops. And I was a dyed in the wool, middle class M&S clothes buyer.

In the past.

That works until expressing your opinion is actively helping to remove many women's access and inclusion in society. At that point no, it's not 'on anyone else' or a neutral act. There's been far too much excusing of all this and 'it's just my opinioning' and it's not. It's harmful. It's actively harmful to others. This is not ok.

Well @ImherewithBoudica what can I say?
That’s just your opinion.

And one opinion seeks to shame and hush women who cannot use mixed sex spaces on the grounds that they are 'odd' so that they are excluded and don't complain about it - which benefits males at female expense.

And the other opinion seeks to establish that everyone matters in this and answers must be found that don't exclude at all. And do not privilege male interests and wishes over female inclusion.

One of these harms women. The other seeks for harm for nobody.

I was looking at the bras in M & S and an older man was standing in front of the ones I wanted to check out. He was with his wife but it was annoying

That’s just your opinion.

There are instances where "opinion" has material effects, and times where "opinion" repeats evidenced facts, @LemonLymanDotCom

The vulnerabilities of women to male predation (especially in enclosed spaces where women are vulnerable) is one of them.

Are you aware, lemon of the instances of camera phones being put under cubicle doors, or through curtains and photos being taken of women in a state of undress without their consent? Or cameras installed in cubicles? Or wanking into women’s clothing and underwear and putting it back on the racks for women to find?.

All real cases. All committed by men. All enabled only by men being allowed in what were previously women-only spaces.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with trying on clothing, then a bloke being outside my changing room, in my female space as I um and er in the communal mirror. I want to do that away from male strangers, that's my boundary. I want that for my young daughter too who doesn't know how to ask for her boundaries.

Because it's a female changing room, my opinion outweighs yours and this males. If one woman says nope, that's enough as it is a female space after all. You are happy either way and I'm presuming you don't demand for male strangers to be in the changing rooms whenever you get changed.

Is that simple enough to understand?

This is quite coincidental but I ventured into M&S underwear department for the first time in quite literally years last weekend looking for thermals. I quite idly noticed not one but two middle aged men seemingly hanging around without particular reason in the lingerie section and thought: this feels creepy, entitled and quite unpleasant.

The prospect of being confronted by that on exiting a changing cubicle will stop me ever risking that experience in M&S ever again.

Firstly, @@Musomama1 if you want to look in a mirror without the male gaze, that’s fine. i don’t know how you’ll get through life without seeing your reflection in front of unknown men but that’s your challenge to deal with, not mine. Personally I see my reflection in front of random men all the time as do many other women without worry, so I was expressing surprise that anyone would be uncomfortable about that.

In fact, the OP was comfortable enough to get changed with a man outside (after all, that is what she did), it was only the twirling round in front of a mirror while fully dressed that she was uncomfortable doing in front of a man. Personally I don’t get that.

Secondly, if I was uncomfortable, I’d ask the man to leave, but again that’s just me. I realised throughout this thread it’s something I’ve done before (booting a bloke out of woman’s loos some 20 years ago at university) and have no hesitation in doing again.

Also I don’t need it simplifying for me thanks. Are you always so patronising?

Finally, your opinion does not outweigh mine at all. How arrogant to assume it does, does your opinion always outweigh those you don’t understand?

Anyways, I’m done now now. All the hyperbole and hand wringing of this board really isn’t for me.

The prospect of being confronted by that on exiting a changing cubicle will stop me ever risking that experience in M&S ever again.

Please write to M&S to tell them so. Otherwise, they won't get the message ...

Any single woman who thinks this is fine might want to do a porn search on ladies changing rooms. I mean, don't, because you will be horrified and revolted, but if you think just because you have a lockable cubicle everything is just fine, you're delusional.

All the hyperbole and hand wringing of this board really isn’t for me.

If you find it so very uncomfortable to cope with the idea that some females have different life experiences and perspectives to you and need inclusion as well as those privileged enough to feel safe in mixed sex spaces? Or to hear women's voices trying to explain about those experiences? Then yes, perhaps you're right that a women's rights board isn't a place you'll enjoy.

@LemonLymanDotCom you have dominated this thread, posting over and over again to ridicule, mock, shame and disingenuously claim to be confused about this.

No one agrees with you.

No one is amused.

You've made your point, far too many times now. You're not going to achieve anything by banging on and on.

When I used to work at M & S we often used to have men who would be in the lingerie dept who would stroke the underwear, rearrange the displays, rub the mannequins. Now they can go in the changing rooms and hassle real women. Progress!

Stop giving M&S your hard earned money