Has MN become just another platform that silences women?

[Sparklybutold]

www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2022/05/mumsnets-founder-justine-roberts-it-is-a-place-where-women-can-speak-the-truth

What are your thoughts? Interesting piece above but my experience using MN has seen threads being deleted if women actually talk about there experiences within the real world. It feels that ‘hate speech’ has become muddled with the political agenda to silence women who dare to speak there truth.

Yes and no.

I'm not allowed to use the c word for WPATH.

Although I have been able to learn a lot and share info and reflections too on this subject.

And it's the forum I return to.

It went a bit wonky when they split the topics though.

I get deleted a lot here after I've been too used to saying what I want to on Twitter

I've been deleted innumerable times over the years and it rankles that women still can't speak about the three-letter issue that cannot be named here on MN.

And still I celebrate the fact that US transactivists name MN as the reason they haven't been able to take total control here in the UK.

Yes Ive found this, I happened to mention on one thread that I do accept there are people that feel that they are born 'in the wrong body' as they might describe it.

I feel there is a big difference between people that presented like that as children and those who almost pick it up as an affectation in teen years, Ive worked with so many children like this over the last 30 years and there is a big difference. The former is a very small number of course.

But neverthless the responses to me were outright rude, sneery, talking to me as if I was stupid. Completely unecessary. It wasnt even a discussion about that, it was about something else within the current ideology of gender.

Let's test it. 60 year old blokes in miniskirts and fishnets are AGP.

But neverthless the responses to me were outright rude, sneery, talking to me as if I was stupid. Completely unecessary.

If you have a point you believe in, stay and defend it. I think it's too easy for posters to blame the 'tone' of posters disagreeing with them. There are talk guidelines and posts that break them are deleted. Beyond that, robust debate will help you with your arguments, so use it to your advantage.

Well reasoned, solidly backed up points stand for themselves, regardless of anything going on around them. Have the courage of your convictions.

I would agree that there are a tiny, tiny number of children who are strongly 'gender incongruent' from a very young age.

I'm quite surprised that anyone would have been rude or sneery at you for making this point, tbh. It's not all that contentious.

This.

For a long time Mumsnet was the only place I knew where you could speak truth on trans issues without getting desth threats etc

MN and the FWR boards completely changed my views, because of the robust defence and discussions.

I think MN has allowed discussion about some complex and divisive comments to take place, at least in some form. And I don't think that has been an easy thing for them to do.

But I was subject to a 'Not in the spirit' deletion message recently for what was a mildly annoyed comment on an uncontroversial thread. I've stopped myself from posting sometimes since then in case it 'isn't in the spirit', but I'm a bit baffled by the whole thing TBH.

Has Twitter changed then? Because you certainly can post GC views there nowadays.

If you could offer a rational, biology-based and intellectually strong argument that didn't require us to accept that humans can change sex/ that people can be born into the wrong body/ that gender is anything more than a feeling that is difficult to describe/ that didn't require us to change the meaning of words that have been in common use for 800 years/ that didn't impinge on women's rights, a lot of us would love to hear it. We've been longing to hear it for years because if you could trump our arguments with yours, many of us are the kind of people who'd say 'Yes, I can see that makes sense and I'm going to change my mind in light of the argument you've put before me.'

Sadly, that hasn't yet happened. We ask difficult questions because we're testing our own ideas as well as yours.

Good luck. I've tried every variation I can think of, from the formal term to polite descriptors, and I've been taken down every time. I change my name every week or two in the hope that it's the name people are tracking and still it happens!

Matters came to a head for Mumsnet in 2018 when Emma Healy, a former intern, tweeted that the “vast majority” of discussions about trans issues on the site “descend into scaremongering and hate speech”. She wrote that Mumsnet made “no attempt to keep this discussion civil or polite”, and that criticism was dismissed by senior staff as a “smear campaign by trans activists”.

No mention that she illegally shared posters' IP addresses on Twitter then.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3225517-The-MNHQ-Moderation-team

Perhaps those of you who feel your pro-trans views would like to ask some questions of the transman on this thread, who is also GC:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4633855-im-trans-and-i-fully-support-jkr-and-disagree-with-the-eradication-of-womens-spaces?page=2

As you'll see, thoughtful GC people (which I think the majority here are) support transpeople and trans rights.

What's a trans person patti? If you could offer a rational, biology-based and intellectually strong argument that didn't require us to accept that humans can change sex/ that people can be born into the wrong body/ that gender is anything more than a feeling that is difficult to describe that would be great 👍

Hmm I see a sensible thread on the topic, expressing incredulity at how far the TRA movement had gone has just been taken down in AIBU. That's a real shame as more and more women are wanting to talk this out.

I accept the title of the thread in question may have been problematic, but surely that could have been changed rather than stopping the discussion altogether?

When I first began to realise what was going on (Anarchist book fair incident) I found it hard to discover any background information at all. It was only when I got to mumsnet that I realised these things had been happening for some time. There must be many others like me

It was JKR’s essay on Self ID / being labelled transphobic that triggered my search into the issues. It’s on these threads that I’ve witnessed some incredible debates and learned so much.

So, your issue is you try to join a debate but the people with differing opinions are too knowledgeable for you?

That's actually laughable.

That sounds like a you problem, frankly. If you can't argue a position based on evidence, that suggests your conclusions are wrong.

What is your evidence that people are 'born in the wrong body'?

How can someone be 'born in the wrong body'?

Are you suggesting that, somehow, there is a separation between internal identity and the body? That sounds like a concept akin to a soul. Which most people think is completely unscientific. Because it is. You can't evidence that.

Or are you suggesting that, somehow, the brain is not part of the body? Other than being a Cartesian philosophical thought experiment, again, no evidence for that either.

She is very clearly saying she has personally observed a number of people who persistently describe themselves as "in the wrong body".
That's entirely consistent with what medical professionals and researchers are saying.

She's not saying anything about whether people are actually born in the wrong body, just they feel they are.

Your reply again illustrates what she's talking about. Jumping straight to "no such thing" rather than talking about the reasons why people say the feel "in the wrong body". Not helpful.

That's one of the great unanswered questions, AdamRyan. Do you want to give it a go?

This post kind of sums up my issue with the board. I didn't say that people are too knowledgeable for me, I'm not sure where you've got that from.

Not every thread needs to be a robust debate and comments such as "that's actually laughable. Sounds like a you problem" etc aren't helpful, what are they actually bringing to the table?

Those types of comments just steer the conversation away from being respectful and into a place where it's ok to be snidey to people that you disagree with. Then whenever anyone takes issue with it, it's a "you" problem and we're clearly just not smart enough? Come on.

Sometimes, I just want an actual conversation with people who have different opinions from me. A respectful conversation. I don't want to carry on a discussion where I'm feeling insulted, where I'm feeling like I'm being laughed at. I want to be a part of a conversation where both sides can point out the parts they disagree with, the parts that aren't factually correct, etc, without calling each other idiots. I don't find this board to be the right place for that.

It's entirely understandable that an individual, unable to articulate the complex and difficult feelings they are experiencing, might describe the way they feel as 'born in the wrong body.' It's a cliche. I've heard people who want to amputate a limb describe themselves in the same way. We treat them as having complex neurological or psychological issues: we don't assure them that yes, they have been born in the wrong body and promote the belief that people can BBITWB.. As a PP has noted, once you start down that route you're into feelings and souls and belief and religion and well off the scientific, evidenced route.