Has MN become just another platform that silences women?

[Sparklybutold]

www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2022/05/mumsnets-founder-justine-roberts-it-is-a-place-where-women-can-speak-the-truth

What are your thoughts? Interesting piece above but my experience using MN has seen threads being deleted if women actually talk about there experiences within the real world. It feels that ‘hate speech’ has become muddled with the political agenda to silence women who dare to speak there truth.

Comparisons to deckchairs on titanics are rude and unacceptable.

Dismissing others’ contributions as horseshit is fine and dandy.

HTH

its very unfair to people who want the human right to live as they please.

Such a "human right" does not exist because sometimes your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins.

Exactly, Eresh, unfortunately some people lack the capability of intelligent thought hence making that comment. Perhaps they could, for once, just try and think through the implications of that statement that they use for emotional blackmail.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

At no time did I suggest trans peoples right to express their gender identity should override sex based right.

Trans people have the right to express their belief in gender identity and have that respected, in the same way as any other belief

Rude. Again.

Trans people have the right to express their belief in gender identity and have that respected,

That's in relation to public authorities. It doesn't mean people in day to day life are bound to be nice, polite, or friendly about other people's beliefs.

If you were to argue we should in general be polite and respectful of other people, fine. But I don't afford the same respect to the beliefs of other people, and I don't think it's healthy to suggest anyone should.

I've been on mumsnet for around 15 years and posting on FWR for as long.
This "I'm afraid arguing about whether or not females are fighting their oppression in a way that personally suits you" is rude. I'm not arguing any such thing. I was putting forward my perspective in response to the op. Other posters are either deliberately misquoting, or their own confirmation bias means they assume I must be uninformed so they arent engaging with what I actually write, and instead are engaging with what they assume I think (such as saying I believe people can be born in the wrong body, when I absolutely don't)

Ironically this is a case study of what I said at the outset. Which is that despite being considered a "transphobe" in real life for passionately advocating womens sex based rights, on here I get crucified as if I was a TRA so I don't post any more.

It's a shame because FWR used to be very important to me as a bastion of detailed feminist conversation about a range of topics. I feel like women have list out because now only one set of views are tolerated. But nothing stays the same.

Plus, plenty of trans people don't share a belief in gender identity.

That's a values thing then. I do respect other people's beliefs, even if I personally think they are batshit, as its really not my business what people choose to believe. I find it interesting how other people navigate the world, in fact.

When it extends onto them forcing me to comply with a belief I don't share, that's where I have a problem.

So for example if we were to start training creationism as equally valid to evolution then I'd be outraged. But if creationists choose to believe that, not an issue for me.

I always find Advanced Search to be a useful aid when trying to determine the whether a poster is posting in good faith.

I do respect other people's beliefs, even if I personally think they are batshit

No, that's you respecting their right to hold beliefs. Not the same as respecting the beliefs. You can't respect a belief you consider 'batshit'.

When it extends onto them forcing me to comply with a belief I don't share, that's where I have a problem.

So for example if we were to start training creationism as equally valid to evolution then I'd be outraged. But if creationists choose to believe that, not an issue for me.

I doubt anyone would disagree with that position, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think anyone here is saying any different?

Trans people have the right to express their belief in gender identity and have that respected, in the same way as any other belief

Not really the same thing as having "a human right to live as they like"?

And no one has the "right" to have their beliefs respected if they aren't worthy of respect. But of course they have the right to express them, unless directly inciting violence. As do we all, including rude people.

I've been on mumsnet for around 15 years and posting on FWR for as long.

Then you'll remember that it's always been a place for robust discussion.

Thinking out it, it's become far more accessible because we've stopped the one-upmanshipping with ridiculous number of academic feminist quotes.

See I disagree
I'd rather obscure feminist quotes and open discussion than pile ons for "wrong think"

Its very easy to say nothing about your own views and criticise others.

You shifted the goal post there @AdamRyan from having a human right to live as they like to respecting their beliefs, - did you suddenly realise how ridiculous your first statement was? How does/should this respect manifest itself then? Should we throw a few obscure feminist theory quotes around, would that do it?

You keep castigating us for being rude and I've already asked you but received no reply (which is a bit rude) as to what your personal parameters for this discussion/debate are, perhaps you could let us know.

What??!! I don't have any parameters. Even if I did I'm not a mod so who cares?

Very confused now

There is a difference between "robust discussion" and implying people are stupid, or men, or whatever.

I came up through a male dominated philosophy department in the 90s. Robust discussion was par for the course. Insinuations were not.

See I disagree
I'd rather obscure feminist quotes and open discussion than pile ons for "wrong think"

No one is being piled on for wrong think here.

Challeging other users is perfectly normal on a forum - if we agreed with each other the board would die. We are where we are because we disagree and challenge ourselves. We have all taken our experiences and talked and developed robust arguments for women rights and child safeguarding, that's not an echo chamber it focused discussion.

If we cant do that with each other, we wouldn't bee in a position to challenge politicians.

You keep saying you don't post on this board because of the words, statements and tone used by posters here regarding this debate, so I am asking you what you would consider acceptable in terms of words, statements and tone @AdamRyan, is that not reasonable to ask?

Absolutely this. Not perfect, but definitely an important source of (careful) debate and tremendously useful information.

Exactly, thank you. Similarly I did a PhD in a very male dominated science and that kind of "debating" wasn't really tolerated.

For example "did you suddenly realise how ridiculous your first statement was?"

This kind of statement from a poster upthread is implying I'm stupid/have an agenda as opposed to the reality (slightly sloppy language in first of my posts, clarification in second).

I find it offensive and don't want to engage with people who respond in that way.

There are some very articulate and measured posters on here who I'll happily debate with (Datun, Erroll, Sophocles) but I can't be bothered with the posters who seem to want to feel intellectually superior as opposed to debate. And they have become the dominant posters over time. So I don't post now.

Exactly, thank you. Similarly I did a PhD in a very male dominated science and that kind of "debating" wasn't really tolerated.

This is a feminist chat forum, not male dominated science academia.

We dont have hierarchically rules to follow or that many men to dominate how the chat is played out.

...implying people are stupid, or men...

Sorry but this made me snort into my tea 😁

AdamRyan I've worked my whole career in science and I wouldn't be surprised to be told 'so you realise what you first said was really stupid then, yeah?'*

Probably in a light hearted way, and perhaps because I've mainly worked in private sector rather than academia, but still

*I mean, I would be surprised, cause I'm always right, but let's run with it