Mermaids versus LGB alliance in court today??

[GrabbyGabby]

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/sep/09/trans-charity-mermaids-appeal-lgb-alliance-status

Not sure if it is today or next week. Do we know if this is open like the tribunals?

Just to point out that's just her viewpoint.

I think you’ll find that AB’s viewpoint is shared by the thousands of women who support her, so not just her viewpoint.

Also companies aren’t going to want to risk being sued and it’ll only be a matter of time before they start realising that Stonewall’s advice on equality law is wrong. Other companies will start providing more balanced advice because they are less ideologically driven. Stonewall are finished. It’s just a matter of time.

She pointed that out herself. That's what 'to my mind' means.

This case has been helpful for Stonewalled workplaces by highlighting that Stonewall can wash their hands of any responsibility for their poor advice about the law, and those workplaces will be held responsible for following it and be the ones forced to pay damages to their employees if they are sued.

Er yes.

We know.

We can also analyse the slippage of reputation already being experienced even before Allison’s case directly with the organisations not continuing their support.

Why do you think Kirrin Metcalf and Shaan Knan have improved Stonewall’s reputation? Please be specific. What has convinced you that Stonewall’s professional reputation has been improved by their performance as witnesses.

"I think you’ll find that AB’s viewpoint is shared by the thousands of women who support her, so not just her viewpoint"

There are also many thousands of women, including lesbians, who don't support AB, and support Stonewall and other LGBT charities.

I have noticed a lot of gender-criticals are men (seems to be middle-aged men as opposed to younger men). There's a lot of male LGB-Alliance supporters and a lot of the demonstrators at the drag-Queen story reading were men. Again, just my own observation.

There are also many thousands of women, including lesbians, who don't support AB, and support Stonewall and other LGBT charities.

👨‍🏫👵😚🥚🥚

Thank goodness we have people here to share their entirely inane observations. Where would the internet be without unsubstantiated assertions?

There are also many thousands of women, including lesbians, who don't support AB, and support Stonewall and other LGBT charities.

Yes there are plenty of women (including lesbians) who don’t support AB, believe that gender identity is a thing, and believe that men who say they are women are in fact women. We all know that there are 2 (or maybe 3 if you add in the Christian Right PoV) different perspectives in relation to sex and gender.

What will shaft Stonewall is that they are giving out incorrect advice to companies in relation to single-sex spaces and women’s rights to hold gender critical beliefs and not get fired. Companies are now being sued of the back off that advice whilst Stonewall are walking away without immediate consequences making out that they “won” because they weren’t found to be liable in court. It is irrelevant how many women (including lesbians) support something that is wrong in law. Stonewall did not technically lose the AB court case but they are wrong about the law and they have not recognised this fact because they are up to their necks in ideological bullshit.

You sure they’re all men? Did you ask them all?

"Some people disagree with some other people."

Astonishing.

"Some people disagree with some other people."

Astonishing

In trans activist land differences of opinion are literal violence.

I happy for this to play out, one legal case at a time, and chipping in a fiver each time. Whatever it takes. Legally gender ideology cannot and will not stand. We women are patient.

Absolutely in my experience in real life and online I observe a lot of gay men are waking up to the homophobic implications of gender ideology. Some are quite angry. I guess the older gay men are more likely to have experienced homophobia growing up, hence more driven to action as they experience it as an actual threat, not a mere irritation or insult?

Amongst straight males, my observation is they are later to wake up than women as they are not so directly affected. But those who do become feminist allies are often more able to speak out. There is less social consequence.

Trouble is lumping everyone who doesn’t believe in the magical ability to change sex as gender critical means people with wildly differing ideas will be assumed by idiots to all be the same. Are male sports scientists and Trans Widows kindred spirits? Not necessarily. But neither believe men can be women. It is NOT a mainstream view that TWAW in any meaningful way, whatever Twitter likes to tell us.

also not everyone who protests about DQS will be GC. Just like back in the 70s not everyone campaigning against pornography were feminists.

I guess the older gay men are more likely to have experienced homophobia growing up

And older gay people, male and female, have often done the coming out, clubs, dating, groups thing and moved on to settled friendship groups and relationships. More life experience, less dependency on staying in with the in crowd and coming from a time (about five minutes ago) when it was ok to be gay and not something disgusting to fix to other people's demands.

Sad that was temporary. But those of my generation and older are tending to feel we ignored one lot of homophobics, here come another lot but won't make any difference to those of us who are homosexual, doing our own thing and don't need validation or involvement from anyone else to a) do it and b) be happy.

Fundamental difference really in attitude to the current movement we're supposed to be too old and saggy titted to be able to understand is 'better'. Somehow.

Trouble is lumping everyone who doesn’t believe in the magical ability to change sex as gender critical means people with wildly differing ideas will be assumed by idiots to all be the same.

This is the mistake people like Marg are making with this comment: I have noticed a lot of gender-criticals are men

Marg assumes that anyone who protests against DQST or doesn't believe that TWAW is 'gender critical'. Some of them are not gender critical at all. Some of them are just as supportive of gender as those who believe in magical sex changes. Here's a diagram to illustrate that.

This.

What is this odd 'win' fixation anyway?

It's like a child struggling at the stage where everything has to be split into winners and losers, and either you get to dance around bellowing "Loser!" at others (and then whinge because they're fed up with you for being obnoxious about it) or you sob and sulk for bloody hours because it's not faiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir and someone has to Fix It.

I appreciate there is a move to find a suitable label to apply to the very many people who are not on board with 'TWAW' - it makes it easier to denigrate, attack and impugn people if you can label them first.

Attempting to label everyone who believes that there are two sexes, that it's not possible to change sex, and that biological sex does affect people's lives, 'gendercriticals' is a bit of a risky strategy, though.

Because most people would agree with those entirely unexceptional assertions. And then find they're being labelled 'gendercriticals', without actually knowing what it even means.

Mind you, it won't hurt if people start to ask what 'gender' actually is, and what it means to be 'critical' of it.

This is a good diagram. I've thought for a while that the commonly used definition of "gender critical" (of holding a belief that sex is real immutable and matters) is slightly lacking because it applies as much to rightwing Christians as it does to leftwing feminists and it fails to mention that a critique of "gender" is a necessary part of the belief. This allows TRAs to pretend that we are politically aligned with the right in some way.

That diagram is excellent and should be mandatory reading. It makes it so clear that genderists have just as much in common with right wing Christians. Both centre males, for starters.

OldCrone

I struggle to believe it’s a mistake, it’s a calculated attempt to compare feminists with Bad People

As PP have pointed out, knowing that humans can not change sex does not necessarily make one Gender Critical. But if they are, so what? What's your point? Many transwomen are middle aged males. Maybe men are more aware of what other men are capable of?

This diagram is great!

Maybe men are more aware of what other men are capable of?

Yes this is the case I think.