The spell is breaking......daughters finally waking up?

[BoredofthisCrap7]

I have slowly and gently been countering the trans ideology that my two teenage girls have been exposed to at school and social media.
One has always been very gender critical and we have been discussing things in the news like men in women's sports, the many (many) kids identifying as "trans" in her year at school, her own registration teacher (whose child is a trans male to female) basically indoctrinating her group on trans "rights", the law in Scotland where we live etc.

My oldest girls however, was VERY much TWAW, be kind, the whole hog. She has a gay BF and I think she was confusing the issues in her mind. We have had a lot of VERY tense conversations but I hoped she would come to her own conclusions in time.
Yesterday we had a breakthrough.
We were discussing (again) women's sports and the rugby issue, the golfing/snooker issue in the news. She finally admitted that biology is important in sport, that she thinks there should be categories for trans athletes (I will work on this!) and EVEN wondered OUT LOUD that bathrooms and sex segregated spaces should include third spaces for trans people.

It was a massive admission for her.
I did then explain to her that what she just said would get her "cancelled" as a terf, that these solutions have ALL been suggested and that they are never good enough for the TRAs, that they want #no debate, unquestioning acceptance that TWAW, across the board access to women's spaces etc.

She said....."it's not fair Mum is it?".

I could cry.

I think the spell is breaking.

Have you broke through with any TWAW children or relatives?

For what it’s worth, the issue that started to introduce doubt about TWAW for me was the chemical castration etc of children who later change their minds.

I am starting to see desisters among the kids' cohort. The transgirl on the local boys' football team (accepted there by all the boys, incidentally -- proper inclusion) has quietly abandoned the girls' uniform at school and gone back to trousers and previous name.

But, as our teenage relative has had surgery, I am dreading possible regret there. We certainly didn't cheer on the transition, but neither did we stand up in time and shout 'What the fuck are you playing at?' at her parents.

My son, 19, and his friends all think it’s a bit silly. In the same way they laughed at misogynist TikTok videos. They don’t say much, but don’t really rate others who are overly woke on social media, especially girls who are very TWAW.

They have two gay male friends who came out at school and are very supportive.

However he is so far wary of the trans issue because in his limited experience it just means being bullied. One girl really offended my son by trying to make out that he was bigoted by not fancying her trans female friend (biologically male).

He has a few other tales that could fill a thread in itself. So believe me, there are a few young men out there also who can see that the blurring of boundaries in trans issues can just be really messed up when you are trying to find your feet, your own sexuality growing up.

I would strongly suggest that when someone like that joins a thread like this, we all resist the urge to become contemptuous but instead try to open up the conversation. Often it will be futile but occasionally someone like me will start to see the issues and will firmly end up on the side of TWATW. I know it’s a fraught issue on all sides but throwing insults gets us nowhere.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

"Brainwashing and indoctrination, and regurgitating verbatim nonsense from a website is not the same as coming to conclusions via free thinking, research and considered thought."

You seem to think that just because someone has reached a different conclusion to you that they are not "free thinking". Most people who are pro-trans rights are pro-trans rights because we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand.

Hearach you may have reached your conclusions on your own but many do not - mindlessly saying that JKR is transphobic and then it transpires they have not read what she said, or thinking that no one on here has trans friends or loved ones, or doing research only on sites that confirm their own biases, or accepting data that confirms their own views and rejecting the veracity of those that challenge them.

I used to be where you are, until it dawned on me that the legal definition of "woman", plus the rights of women to single sex spaces in prisons, rape crisis shelters, sport, scholarships and anywhere else where sex-based allowances are needed were not mine to give away just because I have one lovely transwoman friend who wouldn't hurt a fly, and one of my auntie's best friends is a transwoman who transitioned in the 90s from a country where being gay was less accepted than being trans, and the colossal struggles and heartache and literal pain each has gone through.

Transpeople absolutely have struggles, women also have struggles which are rooted in our biology, namely the sex-based oppression women have faced in patriarchal societies forever and out of which we cannot identify. We need third spaces, open leagues in sports, additional facilities while preserving single sex ones. Unfortunately, that isn't acceptable to many trans people and their allies who demand nothing less than total validation and capitulation, in thought, word and deed. Hence the need to debate, discuss and persuade, and thank goodness MN allows us a space in which to do that

Children who are fed this propaganda in schools, now from a very young age, or who have had access to social media for the last few years and are bombarded with these stories at a time when puberty means they are already confused and vulnerable, or questioning their sexuality, are not reaching these conclusions in any well reasoned way.
You only have to look at a small handful of the MANY detransition stories and on Youtube to see that vulnerable people are being brainwashed and indoctrinated into the trans religion the same way that vulnerable people are more likely to join certain cults of other kinds.
Look at the statistics for the increases in the number of people identifying as trans, particularly in young girls.
It is increasing astronomically. It is a scale of social contagion we have never seen before. There are 5 trans children in my daughters year alone.

And when you find out that many of these children have autistic tendencies or fall somewhere on the autistic spectrum or have other co-existing mental health issues, it makes it clear that no, they are NOT reaching these conclusions in any kind of mature or researched way.

Every TRA regurgitates the basic same easily dismantled arguments and are easily felled by very basic questions and facts.

Also, what are these "trans rights" of which you KEEP speaking? You've mentioned them on a lot of threads but have never clarified what you actually mean.

What rights?

we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand

As do I. And from that, I conclude that most trans people are either autistic or had some significant trauma in their teenage years, often involving a family member's illness or death. That's how it works, yes? Personal anecdote?

And from the two transwomen in my life, it's 100% homophobia at the root of it - both of my parents' age and generation, both come from cultures where being an effete gay man would have been unacceptable in the 60s when they were growing up (working class British, and an Asian country) and being a woman, even a transwoman, was more acceptable.

If we're getting into anecdote.

Most people who are pro-trans rights are pro-trans rights because we actually know trans people and learn about their struggles first-hand.

How sad that you can't see if something is right or wrong unless you have personal experience of it. Like all those misogynist blokes who have daughters and suddenly realise what a shitshow it is for women being preyed on all the time.

I call BS anyway - usually people who are pro 'rights' of any kind are able to articulate what rights they are demanding.

For example: I strongly believe that all people should have the right to single-sex spaces where required, for purposes of safety and dignity. Single-sex spaces don't solve all problems, but they are a 'quick and dirty' way of reducing risk.

"women also have struggles which are rooted in our biology, namely the sex-based oppression women have faced in patriarchal societies forever"

I couldn't agree more. Trans woman and cis women both suffer oppression from the patriarchy and that is why the sisterhood and solidarity is so important.

"How sad that you can't see if something is right or wrong unless you have personal experience of it."

I was pro-trans rights before I ever knowingly met a trans person (and I was also against antisemitism before I ever knowingly met a Jew).

Everyone's journey is different but knowing someone does help. For example, if you know a gay or lesbian you're far more likely to be pro-gay marriage.

news.gallup.com/poll/118931/knowing-someone-gay-lesbian-affects-views-gay-issues.aspx

The more trans people come out, the more people will get to know them and support their rights. It's inevitable!

The more trans people come out, the more people will get to know them and support their rights.

Which specific rights though? The ones about single-sex spaces I would like are in opposition to the ones other people would like (I don't know how you personally establish who is trans or not or what definition you use, so it's a bit arbitrary which group wants which rights).

Trans woman and cis women both suffer oppression from the patriarchy

Maybe. But transwomen miss out on all the female-specific stuff about how our bodies grow and operate -- the biology that makes us on average smaller and less muscular; the biology that grows eggs, with all that that leads to.

It's very unfair to treat different bodies as if all are male and none have female-specific issues.

I thought we were trying to get past that particular bit of sexism, rather than ignoring it in case it upsets male people.

You're happy for a trans man like Jamie Wilson to use women's spaces?

www.boredpanda.com/transgender-man-before-and-after-jamie-wilson/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

I think most women would have a problem with that...

They obviously do. That is why trans women are catcalled on the street:

jezebel.com/what-street-harassment-is-like-for-me-as-a-trans-woman-1659488352

And they also have a much higher risk of breast cancer than cis men. So they actually share a number of biological traits with cis women as well:

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/study-shows-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-in-transgender-women/

This is why they're part of the sisterhood 😀

They neither shrink nor grow eggs on transition, Hearach.

Transwomen do not suffer female-specific issues.

I can quite believe that taking opposite-sex hormones is a bad idea for one's cancer risk, and I hope that risk is fully explained to people.

Millions of cisgender women around the world were born without a uterus. That doesn't make them any less of a woman.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/mayer-rokitansky-kuster-hauser-syndrome/#:~:text=Mayer%2DRokitansky%2DK%C3%BCster%2DHauser%20(MRKH)%20syndrome%20is,the%20absence%20of%20a%20uterus.

I share some biological traits with fish: I can swim and like the taste of seaweed. I'm not a fish. Even if some men say I smell like a fish, I am still not a fish.

Equally, trans men who have had top surgery have a much reduced risk of breast cancer.

I'm sure you approve 😀

"sisterhood and solidarity"

Well, given that they are males, they cannot be part of a sisterhood. Men are not women.

Also, you've resorted to the PREDICTABLE TRA arguments AGAIN while STILL FAILING to answer what the "rights" are that you are fighting for.

What about women without uteruses?
They're still not men.

Trans men! What about them eh?
They're still female and don't pose a threat to me.

Transwomen have stuff in common with cis women!
Apart from belonging to the same species, no they don't. They're men.

It sounds like you are reading off some kind of script.

Also, I'm sure that the young women who have had their breasts lopped off and later regretted it are delighted that they have a decreased risk of breast cancer.
What a fantastic advocate for them you are.

Also, oestrogen can increase cancer risk if the particular cancer is oestrogen receptive.

THAT's why they get an increased risk.
NOT because they're "trans" - because they're pumping themselves full of artificial hormones never intended for their male bodies.

It would happen to any "cis" male dosing themselves with female hormones.

What a pathetic argument to try to group males and females together to suit your TRA babble.

I don’t think you are arguing in good faith, Hearach. Why would I ‘approve’? Breast removal to prevent or treat breast cancer is one thing; breast removal with a side effect of reducing breast cancer another matter. Amputating a damaged limb may be necessary, but you’d hardly recommend amputation in order to prevent a broken leg.

I really hope this is true.

But the other day a good friend told me her son is gay which really surprised me. Turns out his 'boyfriend' is a trans man who recently finished A levels at an all girls school. She seemed weirdly proud that her son was no longer 'straight' (too boring I guess?),