Celebrity surrogacy - find this a bit heartbreaking

[Nowyouwillfeel]

Irish ‘celebrity’ couple with a new baby via surrogacy. The surrogate was one of the couples sister. They have put up pictures and stories all delighted and excited but I just see raw emotion on the mothers face in the second picture and in their stories the baby is clearly rooting for her mothers breast. I have a two month old who always does this and honestly it’s breaking my heart seeing the baby search like that while the dad doesn’t even notice and that she isn’t with her mother. They took the baby home before the mother was discharged and she is nowhere to be seen.

seems so unfair on both baby and the mother who doesn’t have any children of her own.

instagram.com/bprdowling?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

If I was able you're damn straight I'd fill my house to the brim with kids that needed a home! I'd sure as anything no matter what never rent someone else's body in order to buy another human being. There is a massive difference even without the harm taken into account.

And yes I'd be happy taking older children with associated backgrounds you describe - but I'd be sure as hell to be 100% sure I'd be equipped both materially and in knowledge to do so.

Your arguments make no sense or are barely related.

Surrogacy can be consensual between the adults but why does the harm to the baby not come into it at all at any point?

All this talk of being pro choice or not and adoption as if it were a choice and not the least bad option out of necessity - and importantly regulated and safeguarded! - is just navel gazing waffle IMO.

Where in your "the parents buying children are entitled" is there room for all of the points made by@NotBadConsidering? It's important stuff in that post and not one pro surrogacy poster has been able to address any of that - if they even acknowledge it's legitimacy in the first place.

Exactly. Show your working of how you deal with all scenarios that could go wrong and I’ll accept that surrogacy can work.

“Fingers crossed” isn’t acceptable when you’re dealing with 3 parties of real people.

Her body, her choice.

The number of patronising misogynists on this thread who assume this "poor little woman" wasn't competent to make this choice is horrifying.

Commercial surrogacy is very open to exploitation but this isn't that.

@NotBadConsidering

I didn't say both parents I said parents so it's related to one or the other in a gay couple and in a heterosexual couple can be related to both if they use an embryo, couldn't it?

That's not the same as adopting a baby from age ten with no biological connection to you

I would be very worried about attachment disorders in the ten year old and other health problems that may arise

Regarding attachment. My son who was prem 35 weeks I can't expand more as I'm worried this thread will be picked up by press and then because of my initial post I could be identified.. he is probably also autistic to a degree and has some behavioural issues his siblings don't demonstrate signs of (yet ) but I'm pretty sure they don't have the same personality or character as him. All three are biologically mine and my husbands. It is a glue that he is our child when we raise him. He is hard work at times, also very rewarding. I admire his determined nature and he is very strong and well sized now but was under the 5th centile when born.

I think his issues are genetic as my husband has autism on his side of the family.

I also think being premature didn't help any of his development. I think exposure to sepsis, three times didn't help him.

I think my son has problems related to being in scbu and not being constantly held as I was so so sick myself that I was there with him as much as possible every day. I had been extremely sick when I was pregnant and after I had him I had PND; unsurprisingly. I hate myself for what happened to him. This baby has literally gone to its biological father and will be raised with love and intention (at least that's what I think should happen if you have a surrogate) I would expect that this baby wouldn't have any more attachment issues then if the baby was an embryo implanted using his sperm or his female partners egg. If this baby is held, soothed and fed it will be safe and secure. Our babies in scbu were very different cases

I'm now wondering if I actually did go to school with Brian or if I know him from where I grew up. I know him from childhood though.

In summary I am ok with surrogacy when it's consensual, just like other things in life such a sex, starting a business, buying a house, raising kids, having kids.. list goes on..

When something isn't consensual then it isn't ok!!

Surrogacy is probably best kept to a cost covering and act of love set up where the baby is carried out of love and respect or aftection for someone instead of it being a commodity. Children as a commodity is a whole new ball game. As far as I understand, in England we can only cover costs and not "pay" as such for the baby

... does it being free / costs covered and an act of affection make it ok? I think it means it's been done for the right reasons at least

Hypothetically:
Who gave you the right to have kids and then raise them? Did you kid choose you for a parent? Did they choose your values and morals? No. Did they choose when they were born or if they were born? No

It's all exactly the same circumstances IMO in a normal biological wanted pregnancy as a planned and agreed mutually consensual surrogacy.

No one has said that.

What people have said is that no checks or balances exist to assess surrogacy arrangements like this to make sure there is no coercion involved. There are plenty of examples of such stories.

And what people have said is that regardless of “her body, her choice” in genuine true altruistic situations the rights of the baby are never, ever considered.

What framework would you put in place to ensure all arrangements are 100% “her body, her choice”, and the rights of the intended parents and baby are considered also?

@wentoschool

I didn't say both parents I said parents so it's related to one or the other in a gay couple and in a heterosexual couple can be related to both if they use an embryo, couldn't it?

So in the common scenario where neither parent is biologically related, are they trafficking a baby?

I have openly agreed that

Scbu or being seperated from parents at birth is damaging

Breast feeding is amazing

Babies biologically related to us can't be taken as a ten year old ( though in a slightly light hearted way ) I'm sure some people would love to skip the baby bit and raise their child from 18 months when they are a bit more interactive.

I haven't seen you acknowledge that:

Babies root on anything including your best friends clothes

Rooting doesn't mean a baby is hungry all of the time

This baby has gone straight to the biological parent and another parent who really want to raise them

The surrogacy in this case is consensual

I would also love to help children but I haven't got any space at the moment for them and we can't afford any more in our home. I chose to have my children, why can't they? My children didn't get a say in if I made them, I wanted them so I made them, I hope they are ok with being made. Honestly. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that

I'm stating facts here not my opinion.

I wish I had breast fed my children. I feel bad that I didn't do it for long at all with any of them, but expressed for as long as I could emotionally manage- it got harder as my family expanded and I had more children to look after

This!!!!! Her body, her choice. She made the decision to do this.

A child has been born into a loving home, with two dads who are going to love and provide for her! Think the rights of the baby have been met if u ask me!

If the mother is paid and coerced into it then imo yes, they are trafficking a child but worse then that they are trafficking the surrogate mother, too.

Ok, so who is checking these arrangements? Where’s the oversight?

I’m against surrogacy but is it really true this is her first ever child? If so that’s so bad. You’ve no idea how you’ll truly feel giving up your child in any circumstances but especially if it’s your first.

I hate the argument about “choice”, as if it’s made in a vacuum. It can be used in any circumstances to excuse people abusing others.

Also, in family circumstances what if the woman has regrets at any point? How difficult would it be. It’d potentially destroy relationships.

We've had a family joke with our oldest as a newborn that he didn't recognise me as an individual but the mama support unit. It's true - it slowly dawns on babies that there are other... things, people, reassuring voices. Only one has the right smell and heartbeat for pure reassurance.

Of course some babies have to be taken at birth for their safety - a very small number thankfully. Being part of a society determines that harm can sometimes be done to us for the greater good. It doesn't create a right to harm us to meet the wants of others though.

Lastly, everyone who says the baby is the egg and sperm. My kids are IVF creations from my husband's and my biological tissue. Having been through it three times I have absolutely no doubt that they are pure individuals. It would make no difference if we had had to use a donated egg. Carrying them meant everything, as has the matching and coming home process for my friend and her adopted daughter.

No-one should be able to buy a baby, and that's it.

So you don’t think a child has the right to be with its mother?

What framework do you propose to make sure a baby is always going to a “loving family” every time it is removed from its mother in surrogacy? Because in non-surrogacy arrangements, a family court judge makes the call that the baby is better off away from its mother and child protection services make sure the placement of the child is somewhere loving and safe.

@NotBadConsidering

I don't know, I wish I knew that bit

What I do know is that if the case is consensual and out of love from a friend or relative or also a surrogate for the same reasons I am ok with it

Anything else makes me uncomfortable and I don't agree with as it concerns the abuse of human rights

I'm ok to explain this btw it's not putting me on my toes maybe I didn't explain myself properly

Not sure it's empowering to women to be a surrogate but it is an enormous act of kindness if it's done the way I agree with it

So you don’t think a child has the right to be with its mother?

What framework do you propose to make sure a baby is always going to a “loving family” every time it is removed from its mother in surrogacy? Because in non-surrogacy arrangements, a family court judge makes the call that the baby is better off away from its mother and child protection services make sure the placement of the child is somewhere loving and safe.

@NotBadConsidering

I think the baby does have a right to be with it's mother but only if it's safe and she wants it. I know you didn't ask me but that's how I feel. However this baby has two dads so a mother isn't applicable, if I did it for my sister she is the mother so she has the mother position the baby is entitled to

If adopted it's that adoptive parent

A baby made entirely of donour products the right to the mother who grew it

Really surprised by some of these comments. I understand that surrogacy is unnatural but why paint the sister as a victim? She clearly agreed to do it and knew what she was getting into. Maybe she has chosen not to be in photos? Maybe she wants time away to recover? I didn't breastfeed and my baby rooted- does that mean I'm a terrible mother?

@Ella28_ a dated view? Just because something is 'dated' does not make it wrong. The problem with people like that is they think the world needs to change and they think everyone is entitled to everything these days. The world is going in a very horrible direction...:( in generations to come people will be choosing their babies hair colour and eye colour and build...removing any imperfections in the human species. Guess who will be getting the designer babies...the rich! Not to go into more detail on the further ramifications of this but just for an idea. This is how things go when people don't think of the moral implications of things. Nature is nature....nature is best and if we go against nature in this unnatural way the world is damned. It starts here.....

All this "all you need is love" is really lovely, full of heart, comes from a great place but is ultimately wooly thinking.

Love does not make the world go round, it isn't all you need and there are other very important considerations. Love should be a given but responsibility to the children's best interests should always be paramount.

And at the bottom line for me is that humans are not objects to be bought and sold. Where do you draw that line? Which people or set of people could eventually be classed as commodities? If not rent a womb and buy a human baby, why not buy and sell other humans too? Scary AF thought.

And loving intentions being the difference between human trafficking and a wonderful act? What?!

But what if you can't have a baby? Is that nature? What a sad notion

Insane and immoral to choose how baby looks

Not into gender selection either

@wentoschool I know what you’re trying to say. But it only takes one little thing, one complication, one doubt, one disagreement and it’s no longer completely consensual. No one can predict at the start of a surrogacy arrangement whether everyone will still be loving each other or in complete agreement and come through mentally, emotionally and physically unscathed. As I said before, altruistic surrogacy is characterised by “fingers crossed”; everyone hopes to hell nothing goes wrong or deviates from the script because the consequences are dire. So how can people support an arrangement so delicately balanced like that?

I know two sisters who no longer speak after a surrogacy arrangement between them.

Yes of course they do!!!

What racism?

Sorry loving intentions and a familial relationship of some kind with the surrogate makes all the difference between a wonderful act and human trafficking. I was just boggled at the mental gymnastics.

That's so sad 😞

I don't know how the policy can be made robust but I'm interested in anyones ideas

Same as a disabled baby, too isn't it? 😞

I couldn't terminate a pregnancy myself, unless I would die or the baby would suffer horrendously from health problems that would make it suffer in pain and sadness