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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights don't transpeople have?

775 replies

CrossStichQueen · 29/08/2022 08:46

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

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Trying20 · 30/08/2022 21:47

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Trying20 · 30/08/2022 21:56

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NotBadConsidering · 30/08/2022 21:57

I’ve been out to LGBT bars in town and seen the straight guys try to “have a go” and pull a lesbian - I’m not totally blind to this and I think it’s shit.

Straight male dressed masculine tries to pull a lesbian who refuses - male at fault.

Straight male dressed feminine tries to pull a lesbian who refuses - she’s a transphobe.

What a world we live in when this is condoned.

Trying20 · 30/08/2022 21:58

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TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2022 22:01

because they look at those loud, kind of extreme posts about “them” and “we” and go “nah, danger lies that way.”

Yet again, what posts are you actually talking about here? Given that the example you used to illustrate that last time was one of mine that you had taken out of context.

NotBadConsidering · 30/08/2022 22:03

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The world condones this, as evidenced by the thread of lesbians being abused at Pride.

You indirectly condone this by failing to afford the same boundaries to women from males based on some nebulous exterior appearance afforded by chosen gender identity.

DameMaud · 30/08/2022 22:05

It is that long yes! Sorry. Another time maybe. Worth it though because he looks at the issues (pulls them all together pretty broadly) in terms of the impacts on women's, children's, and lesbian and gay.
Just finished it myself and he def is gay and explores that in some depth in the second half

I'd say allow time for some screen pausing too.

I watched it after reading this thread and thought of you as I was watching it as you seem curious and open and I think it answers some of your thoughts. I also think film/documentary often is a less heated way to respond to someone to offer a perspective on a topic (that's how I eventually came to mine over time)

I LOVE Severance btw. Mine and DH's favourite TV series ever (rare to find something we both love 😆). It is genius. Totally unique. I also recommend others watch it (esp if you are a bit of a sci fi geek). Deeply satisfying both visually and philosophically (brain food). Hoping it's not too long until the next series!!

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2022 22:06

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But then I've just had a quick glance and am fucking off really early because what I can hear is the same tone I have heard oh so many times from nice, reasonable male people of all identities, that is saying "I have made the effort to come here will agree to give you the favour of listening (critically) to you girls telling me a bit about your perceived 'issues' with these males, but Daddy is only going to listen if you use your indoor voice and nice words.'

And nah, danger lies that way.

It's an unfortunate vibe.

Helleofabore · 30/08/2022 22:07

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2022 22:01

because they look at those loud, kind of extreme posts about “them” and “we” and go “nah, danger lies that way.”

Yet again, what posts are you actually talking about here? Given that the example you used to illustrate that last time was one of mine that you had taken out of context.

And the first post he posted was discussing ‘we’ as in feminists, including past and present posters on this board.

So, eyeball (sorry to keep defending your post when it actually needs no defence) was also taken needlessly as an example.

This is the crazy bit.

It is the undermining of posters for being ‘extreme’ in one poster’s eyes who seems to have little knowledge of the issues feminists have fought for and are fighting for. It is like a pat on the head patronising that I am sure I am not the only female on this board to have experienced in our lives, including professionally.

Trying20 · 30/08/2022 22:08

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Trying20 · 30/08/2022 22:11

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DameMaud · 30/08/2022 22:12

@Trying20
Apologies to all for repost- not sure if needed to tag Trying (fairly new on here):

DameMaud · Today 22:05

It is that long yes! Sorry. Another time maybe. Worth it though because he looks at the issues (pulls them all together pretty broadly) in terms of the impacts on women's, children's, and lesbian and gay.
Just finished it myself and he def is gay and he explores that in some depth in the second half
I'd say allow time for some screen pausing too.

I watched it after reading this thread and thought of you as I was watching it as you seem curious and open and I think it answers some of your thoughts. I also think film/documentary often is a less heated way to respond to someone to offer a perspective on a topic (that's how I eventually came to mine over time)

I LOVE Severance btw. Mine and DH's favourite TV series ever (rare to find something we both love 😆). It is genius. Totally unique. I also recommend others watch it (esp if you are a bit of a sci fi geek). Deeply satisfying both visually and philosophically (brain food). Hoping it's not too long until the next series!!

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2022 22:14

I’ve literally dissected a post (not yours) previously with the “them” and “we” issues I’ve raised again here. I don’t want to keep zoning in on the same poster though.

I've seen that and the description 'loud' 'extreme' and 'danger' are utter exaggeration, as I think you're well aware.

And that's the best you can do.

This line of argument is simply disingenuous. It would be more helpful if you tried to examine your preconceptions of this board (strongly signposted in your opening remarks) and tried to unpick what goes on in your brain when you don't find what you expect.

MorningPlatypus · 30/08/2022 22:17

I remember over a decade ago posting on this board about 'cis privilege' and getting my arse handed to me. In those days I considered transwomen to be women inside.

I could never have imagined what would come to pass. Men in prisons, rape crisis centres, changing rooms - all because they say they're women. Lesbians being abused for not wanting dick, and people nodding along when trans people say they are physically the opposite sex.

And men, who have no skin in the game whatsoever, coming onto a female website to lecture feminists on being kind. Fuck that noise.

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2022 22:22

There's an article somewhere about how it feels to women right now when men do reasonable thought experiments about their rights and experiences. Something about if women's rights are tied to the tracks, it's not very helpful to ride the train.

Essentially the point you seem to be making is that if women want to be heard about their rights and things like not being raped in prison please, or thrown out of Pride for being a female homosexual and saying so, then they need to make sure they sound less shrill and angry, so they don't put people off wanting to listen to them. Which is a very, very common experience of sexism for women and understandably somewhat irritating to experience.

I hope I've put that politely enough.

Helleofabore · 30/08/2022 22:24

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2022 22:22

There's an article somewhere about how it feels to women right now when men do reasonable thought experiments about their rights and experiences. Something about if women's rights are tied to the tracks, it's not very helpful to ride the train.

Essentially the point you seem to be making is that if women want to be heard about their rights and things like not being raped in prison please, or thrown out of Pride for being a female homosexual and saying so, then they need to make sure they sound less shrill and angry, so they don't put people off wanting to listen to them. Which is a very, very common experience of sexism for women and understandably somewhat irritating to experience.

I hope I've put that politely enough.

Yes. This is what I have been trying to get into a post.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2022 22:26

Essentially the point you seem to be making is that if women want to be heard about their rights and things like not being raped in prison please, or thrown out of Pride for being a female homosexual and saying so, then they need to make sure they sound less shrill and angry, so they don't put people off wanting to listen to them.

Yet at the same time, the extreme end of the TRAs behave disgracefully and that's AOK.

Artichokeleaves · 30/08/2022 22:44

Ah it was this article: genderarguments.com/openletterbiologicalsex/

Slightly different focus, but interesting reading to understand perhaps in greater depth why this is a slightly sensitive theme for women at present.

As is this one, which addresses the topic of unfeminine, off putting behaviour as the socialised legacy getting in women's way in this matter, although perhaps not in women's experience the way it was supposed to negatively affect them. (Behaviour incidentally framed as assertive and authoritative when a male person does it)

theblisteringrebuttal.substack.com/p/4183e962-ded5-47f7-b89f-c49b9de6cbb5

LaughingPriest · 30/08/2022 22:57

LaughingPriest · 30/08/2022 08:39

I understand that there are situations in which this may cause problems for women - and in particular around changing facilities, toilets or other spaces that are traditionally single sex.
I fully understand that some women might feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, or undignified in a situation where they're forced to use these facilities alongside trans people

If you understand the concept of risk, you will know that the "problems" you mention are increased incidences of sexual assault. This has happened; it's been documented. To not acknowledge this and move on to focus on whether feelings are hurt is the problem in a nutshell.

A LGBT rights campaigner asked for a female doctor and had NHS staff writing about her to raise concerns about her transphobia. Google Clare Dimyon. This is the "extreme" position we are threatened for upholding.

Just popped back onto this thread and this makes so much more sense now. "Women's problems". Rape, sexual assault.

Wellies54 · 30/08/2022 23:16

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Sorry, getting back to this late after a busy evening! I respect your view that you don't mind transmen identifying as gay men but you also seem clear that you see the physical difference between a transman and a man and happy that you have the right to only be attracted to men. I think swapping the situation around it is impossible to ignore the different power balance for lesbians with transwomen. Also, the abuse lesbians receive for simply saying they are only attracted to female bodied is so horrendous - and includes rape threats ( and actual rape) of course and, forgive me if I'm making an assumption, but I don't think transmen threaten to rape gay men. Frustration is expressed on this thread but I still don't feel that there have been any threats or hatred directed at trans people.

Wellies54 · 30/08/2022 23:39

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I hadn't read this before I replied. Evidence shows that there is no difference in numbers committing sexual offences between men and transwomen. Most men and most transwomen would not assault someone so I'm not trying to suggest that there is anything inherently dangerous about transwomen. However it is a myth that there is some kind of magical transformation that occurs when a male person says/believes/identifies/pretends that they are a woman.

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 06:18

LaughingPriest · 30/08/2022 22:57

Just popped back onto this thread and this makes so much more sense now. "Women's problems". Rape, sexual assault.

Yes…. But readers when they see this thread are apparently not going to see a male lecturing us about our extremist discussions about a ‘made up war’ and quibbling about ‘we’ and ‘them’.

I think what was clear is that this is a poster who doesn’t seem to understand that feminism is about the collective efforts of women for our sex class. And our discussion usually centres us as a class, as often as it might talk about ourselves individually and how we fit into the feminist discussion.

Often it involves class analysis. Referring to our sex class and not always individuals.

Therefore, to someone used to talking about themselves and centring themselves only, ‘we’ probably would be ‘extreme’ because it isn’t ‘I’.

Reading back, the ‘why’ of the accusations leveled became clearer.

As many of us have said in the past, we came on FWR and either got our arses handed to us or feared posting until we were up to speed. If we got our arses handed to us though, we went and read more and didn’t just walk away.

Because for women, this is our lives. It is absolutely not a ‘made up war’. It is impacting our lives, our mother’s lives, and for many, daughters and granddaughters, now or future.

We actually understand that our rights at the moment are indeed feeling less secure than in the past. And how many of us realised that many of those ‘protections’ were meaningless when we lost jobs while pregnant, when faced with male doctors who dismissed our medical issues, or when we felt shamed for getting periods and then menopause by society.

Or worse, when rapes, assaults and abuses were reported and no justice was delivered. (Now women are arrested for stickers stating biological facts, and this is considered justice served)

No. When women read these threads, if they don’t identify with the posts they start thinking about why? They read further and discover the dissonance building when they understand what is happening and they didn’t realise that the conflicts to our needs is so wide spread.

It impacts whether you can request a same sex health professional for intimate procedures (which by an early age we all have needed). It impacts our work place and our work security. It impacts whether we access shelters, attend much needed rape centres. It impacts our children, even some directly who start to demand access to experimental treatments. And they are experimental!

It impacts our access to support groups for breastfeeding, it impacts whether we get the correct health messages. It impacts whether lesbians can have female only groups for anything they want. It impacts on whether we go away on that trip by ourselves where we must share accommodation with a stranger.

It impacts what our children are being taught in school. It impacts our safety and enjoyment playing sport, whether it is a park run or a swimming session. It impacts how we shop and whether we try on clothes while we are in the shop or take them home and then waste time and effort to return them.

The list is endless. Once people, and on this board, on this website, that is most often women, realise this, the dissonance is too loud.

And we read further and understand that we are not alone. Even the rudest poster may have something that resonates within us. And not one poster on this board ‘owes’ us information being served up in acceptable language and tone and into accessible sized pieces. Evidence to support claims, yes. That is expected. But presented in the way palatable to our expectations… no.

But, when we do get the information, we devour it. Because it is of huge importance to us.

Because… this is not a fucking ‘made up war’.

MorningPlatypus · 31/08/2022 06:26

Helleofabore · 31/08/2022 06:18

Yes…. But readers when they see this thread are apparently not going to see a male lecturing us about our extremist discussions about a ‘made up war’ and quibbling about ‘we’ and ‘them’.

I think what was clear is that this is a poster who doesn’t seem to understand that feminism is about the collective efforts of women for our sex class. And our discussion usually centres us as a class, as often as it might talk about ourselves individually and how we fit into the feminist discussion.

Often it involves class analysis. Referring to our sex class and not always individuals.

Therefore, to someone used to talking about themselves and centring themselves only, ‘we’ probably would be ‘extreme’ because it isn’t ‘I’.

Reading back, the ‘why’ of the accusations leveled became clearer.

As many of us have said in the past, we came on FWR and either got our arses handed to us or feared posting until we were up to speed. If we got our arses handed to us though, we went and read more and didn’t just walk away.

Because for women, this is our lives. It is absolutely not a ‘made up war’. It is impacting our lives, our mother’s lives, and for many, daughters and granddaughters, now or future.

We actually understand that our rights at the moment are indeed feeling less secure than in the past. And how many of us realised that many of those ‘protections’ were meaningless when we lost jobs while pregnant, when faced with male doctors who dismissed our medical issues, or when we felt shamed for getting periods and then menopause by society.

Or worse, when rapes, assaults and abuses were reported and no justice was delivered. (Now women are arrested for stickers stating biological facts, and this is considered justice served)

No. When women read these threads, if they don’t identify with the posts they start thinking about why? They read further and discover the dissonance building when they understand what is happening and they didn’t realise that the conflicts to our needs is so wide spread.

It impacts whether you can request a same sex health professional for intimate procedures (which by an early age we all have needed). It impacts our work place and our work security. It impacts whether we access shelters, attend much needed rape centres. It impacts our children, even some directly who start to demand access to experimental treatments. And they are experimental!

It impacts our access to support groups for breastfeeding, it impacts whether we get the correct health messages. It impacts whether lesbians can have female only groups for anything they want. It impacts on whether we go away on that trip by ourselves where we must share accommodation with a stranger.

It impacts what our children are being taught in school. It impacts our safety and enjoyment playing sport, whether it is a park run or a swimming session. It impacts how we shop and whether we try on clothes while we are in the shop or take them home and then waste time and effort to return them.

The list is endless. Once people, and on this board, on this website, that is most often women, realise this, the dissonance is too loud.

And we read further and understand that we are not alone. Even the rudest poster may have something that resonates within us. And not one poster on this board ‘owes’ us information being served up in acceptable language and tone and into accessible sized pieces. Evidence to support claims, yes. That is expected. But presented in the way palatable to our expectations… no.

But, when we do get the information, we devour it. Because it is of huge importance to us.

Because… this is not a fucking ‘made up war’.

Brilliant post.

ArabellaScott · 31/08/2022 07:03

either got our arses handed to us or feared posting until we were up to speed

<cough>maybeboth<cough>

Thank you, Helle. This is not a made-up war, indeed. Show me a middle aged woman who has not experienced sexism, harassment, assault, or abuse, and I will be amazed. We live with all of this- either the risk of it and the measures taken to avoid, or the consequences of it and the things done to cope, every day of our lives.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/08/2022 07:31

Thank you Helle. I haven’t defended my post because as you say it doesn’t need defending

people can read what I said and make up their own minds

there is no room to compromise on whether men (however they present) can be in womens prisons or womens sports. It’s like being pregnant; as you can’t be a little bit pregnant, you can’t be a little bit woman. The moment a man is in a female space it’s no longer a female space

also as has been said time & again, what is actually in it for women to give up their spaces? To allow men who who have “woman feelings (whatever they are) to take up places on STEM or political programmes designed to correct the under representation of women? To enter our competitions or sports? There’s no benefit to women at all - but we’re supposed to suck it up otherwise men will be sad? Sod that!

isn’t it interesting how men as a class are so unused to hearing no and how much it affects them

Swipe left for the next trending thread