What rights don't transpeople have?

[CrossStichQueen]

It's a question I have seen asked many times and it is rarely answered. When it is its usually a list of things that are not "rights" or a list of rights/demands not held by anyone else.

It appears Katie M has provided a list of Countries with each trans right they don't provide. KM has also provided source links however many just link to a chart with dots indicating the "trans right" that country doesn't have. No explanation as to why.
For example:

Albania - No legal name change at all.

Quick look and it turns out in Albania nobody can legally change their name. Anyone can socially change their name and change it on their passport and driving licence but nobody can change their BC. So this is not a right others have and trans are denied as implied by KM it is in fact the same rule for all.

While Albania like many countries is behind on LGB support/rights it appears that the lack of rights transpeople do not have are the same rights those who are LGB are also denied yet it seems only the fact that transpeople don't have them is what matters.

The list for each country is very much the same for those countries that share a geographical location/religion/culture and so the sources linked appear to be the same dot chart I mentioned earlier.

The UK list is interesting.

No legal gender recognition without mental health diagnosis. This only applies to changing your BC and the person must have medical support to state they have/had gender dysphoria. Nobody else in the UK has the right to change their BC

No legal gender recognition without spousal consent. This is so that spouses are not forced to be in a now same sex marriage without their consent once the transperson has changed their BC. Transpeople appear to want to remove the consent of others in a legally binding contract which marriage is

No legal ban on conversion therapy. The Conversion therapy ban in the UK is made up of 3 existing Acts. Sexual offences Act 2003. Criminal justice Act 1988 and the offences against person Act 1861. This covers all physical acts and medication abuse used in order to "convert a person's sexual orientation or gender identity". What the trans movement want is affectively counselling of transpeople banned. This means no transperson could seek therapy if they have feelings of GD or confusion around their gender. That is not a right.

No legal parenthood recognition. Any male or female who parents a child has the right to be legally recognised as either their mother or father dependingon the persons sex. Legally in the UK if you are the biological or adoptive parent you are legally recognised as mother if female and father if male. That right applies to all including transpeople.

No legal right to religious marriage. In the UK no religious organisation can be compelled to marry same sex couples so this is a right LGB people do not have also so why does it only matter for transpeople?

No practical access to trans healthcare. This is just a lie. Transpeople have the same access to healthcare as anyone else in the UK. What the source linked discusses is that some transpeople when polled stated they felt prejudice from some healthcare professionals which "put them off" seeking healthcare. While this prejudice is wrong it is sadly experienced by many different people due to their culture/racce/religion/sexual orientation. Transpeople have the same RIGHT to access healthcare un the UK as anyone else

I havent gone through the whole list but looking at certain countries the rights trans people claim not to have are either the same for all trans or not, women do not have those rights either or those in the LGB community also do not have those rights. It seems to me that the trans Community do not want equal rights or rights for women or those in the wider LGB community they just want trans rights (most of which are not rights) for transpeople only and screw everyone else.

@Trying20 . If you acknowledge that a part of the problem in this debate lies with TRAs with extreme views, how much time have you spent on TRA forums/twitter threads complaining about them, as compared to the time you've spent here arguing with women whose views you admit are less extreme?

I now get understand why we got this:

It reads like something from an incel board (also extreme) or an extreme trans rights board, or an extreme Trump supporters board. It’s a sort of “made up” war.

Hey everyone.... we are in a 'made up war!' We are like 'incels' when we discuss our needs as females in terms that some posters find uncomfortable....

”Everytime we tried to have a discussion” who’s the we here? Were all of you personally at the table? All women? What exactly is that?

Do you actually understand how fucking offensive this is?

We! .... women who have been involved in campaigning to make sure that when sex actually matters, females are protected. We!! feminists. Many of us on this fucking board have been involved! But a huge number of other women who have come before and spoke for us and who are joining the conversation even now.

So, when we say 'we tried to have a discussion', we fucking tried to have a discussion. The collective 'we' that even includes posters here and now gone. Even banned from MN for discussing adequate safeguarding and whatever else was objected to by others who actually are extremists.

Do you honestly believe we just sit here chatting about it?

Is that why you have been so disparaging?

Thanks for clarifying, Trying. The fact you are a male actually makes things a lot clearer.

It seems that women here are being nasty and unpleasant, I suggest, because, as you say it doesn't cause me any issues in life.

Transwomen's use of women's spaces affects women.

With all due respect, you are unlikely to have a lived understanding of the reasons why women are more vulnerable to males - yes, you may grasp the stats, which we are all freely able to supply - but you have no experience of how menstruating, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding etc make women uniquely vulnerable, how enormously they impact women's lives, and how in day to day lives how it is to live as the (statistically) more vulnerable sex.

Women live this, have lived this from before puberty. All our lives, as girls, as women, as mothers, as menopausal women, as older women. Our sex affects so many aspects of our lives, we can't help but feel strongly about it, one way or the other.

Do you actually understand that due to no debate @Trying20 , currently for prisons and for rape crisis centres, that 'extremist' position from those who prioritise trans rights is currently policy in a great proportion of rape centres and prisons?

Do you realise that we are now trying to campaign for some of that 'middle ground' you have accused us of not wanting because of your own prejudice of you believe posters on this board believe?

Can you at least honestly answer that?

Trying it was jarring to hear you reference prison as a 'silly' example. And why I know you didn't mean it in quite those terms, it indicates how lightly you are able to take all this.

It is depressing to understand just how little female prisoners are regarded in our society. That's a bigger issue.

But pertinent to the issue here, there is a Transwomen who goes by the name of Barbie Khardashian in a woman's prison in ROI. Google them and maybe you'll get some sense of where we are coming from here and how little women can take their own basic safety for granted.

Keating

If someone uses the term 'Lets pick a bit of a silly one; prisons. I think we can assume that they are actually telling us who they are in regards to how they either understand the issue or how little they actually care about the realities of female prisoners.

Trying, interesting about your experiences with trans men.
Now translate to a lesbian who finds than her supposed female date is actually a trans woman with a male body, and a male attitude. That person will have been through male puberty and will probably be taller, certainly more muscular and more powerful. They may not take kindly to rejection.
I have seen this when I inadvertently led a man to expect more than I intended. Luckily, I was able to retreat to my house and lock the door. The shouting and banging went on for some time.
I wouldn't want to be a lesbian who found out too late, that a date expected her to accept male type sex, and didn't have anywhere to retreat safely.
Your trans dates had women's bodies, and women's attitudes to relationships. Different.

Your question predicates that gender critical feminists have also undertaken bad behaviour.

Er, no. It is the third answer, which is why I went to the trouble of fleshing it out. You, however, said it had to be one or two.

I think we can assume that they are actually telling us who they are in regards to how they either understand the issue or how little they actually care about the realities of female prisoners.

What has only really become clear to me in the last few days is how little people (in general) care about the kind of women who will be most affected by the erosion of sex specific spaces.

Prisoners, abuse victims, orthodox religious. These women are absolutely bottom of the pile. So why wouldn't they get shoved aside for the shiny new woke cause? Deeply depressing, but it's helping me make sense of what's going on.

Trying strikes me as utterly typical of his demographic, though the fact he's still here seems indicative of some openness to understanding the GC view. Maybe?

I doubt men like him have ever given much thought to these women.

I once started chatting to someone on there - got a bit flirty, sent some pictures, etc. etc.When I went to meet them - and I mean, literally, got to their house and started taking my clothes off - they were a trans man. I left. There was no violence, there could have been, but felt a bit violated, like I'd been 'conned' out of the pictures. That said, I mean this in the least crappy way but it's gonna come across badly - that kind of is always a risk when you're using hookup apps to meet strangers like that... it's an unsafe arena by default. I said there was no violence on that occasion but definitely some others. I'm not excusing it, mind.

Realistically that's a whole different dynamic to a lesbian meeting a male.

A woman is far more at risk than you were.

Just touching on this again.

What I don't agree with, is a thread that groups all trans people together, picks out the worst of them, and paints that as the views of a whole group.

And yet, you have written this: It reads like something from an incel board (also extreme) or an extreme trans rights board, or an extreme Trump supporters board. It’s a sort of “made up” war.

Talk about inconsistency, or just plain hypocrisy.

What I also don't agree with is the repeated repetition that this is a clear cut issue and "there is no compromise", "what's the magical middle ground" - of course there has to be one, but that has to be worked out.

You have shown repeatedly on this thread, that you actually have little knowledge about this topic. Yet continued to patronise posters with this clear lack of knowledge.

You are yet to actually acknowledge that this 'middle ground' you repeatedly speak of, has been presented time and time again. It is like you cannot see past your own prejudice.

And if someone comes on here and asks the questions, but you (royal you, rather than anyone in particular) dismiss them as "silly little idiots" then they'll just go somewhere else.

What questions did you actually ask? How about you actually ask some.

And again, readers and new posters who come onto a thread and post : It reads like something from an incel board (also extreme) or an extreme trans rights board, or an extreme Trump supporters board. It’s a sort of “made up” war. have made their intentions not to ask questions pretty fucking clear.

will try to go in with an open mind

You did not come onto this thread with an open mind once you realised it was in FWR. At all.

Thank you for answering my question honestly Trying20 - and I won't @ you since you've said you're finding it a bit overwhelming. Your posts make a lot more sense to me now because I can understand better where you're coming from.

'I think it's a bit unfair to say that "someone rocks up and joins in without first making it clear they don't really have any skin in the game". One of my earliest posts was that I was bowing out because this had come up in my active chats but I hadn't realised it was the feminism forum. I only came back because I'd been tagged a few times.'
Ok, having re-read your earlier posts, it does look as if you tried to pull out of the thread so I'll withdraw the first point. But what about the second point? Do you accept that, compared to the rest of us, you don't really have any skin in this game? And if yes, can you see why your approach on this thread might come across as (to coin an AIBU phrase) a bit cheeky-fuckerish?

Do you realise that we are now trying to campaign for some of that 'middle ground' you have accused us of not wanting because of your own prejudice of you believe posters on this board believe?

Let me reword this then:

Do you realise you are accusing posters on this board of 'extreme' posting who are actively campaigning to at least find that middle ground? That you are continuing to suggest to us 'find the middle ground' and have not read the posts where people are telling you that we are already there. Campaigning for it. And you are telling us we are extremists.

Yes, I understand that some people are trying to campaign for the middle ground stuff. And that's people from both sides of the fence. But I think it's the people near the fence. I think the barriers to successful middle ground are those with the extreme views who won't compromise at all.

Maybe in turn, you can tell us again.... what is to compromise with males in female prisons? How many women are considered 'acceptable' collateral damage in your eyes for a compromise position?

Or, is it quite clear with prisons that females deserve and need to protected first and if any male needs provisions for their safety, it is NEVER to be at the expense of female's needs?

Please clarify. Because you have continued to obfuscate all the way through this thread about this issue.

I can tell you that, as a woman, my experience of not wanting to have sex with a an has led to rape on more than one occasion and coerced sex on more than that.

Women are often unsafe when turning down men/males for sex.

I wouldn't want to be a lesbian who found out the woman I'd hooked up with was male. Males generally don't take too kindly tonwoen who say no to them. Especially ones who have decided they are going to have sex with you and especially those who feel you have rejected their very existence by doing so.

TM are people who have been brought up as female. Have gone through female puberty and with female socialisation. You are unlikely to face the same risk of violence or threat to your personal safety when rejecting sex with a female. However they identify or present.

You then said we should be striving to be the third. We are already the third. Trans activists are the second.I don't care whether you think it's "loaded" as you don't appear to understand this issue very much at all.

So actually you are predicating that feminists have undertaken bad behaviour, not me.