Antipodean fruit grower statement

[nothingcomestonothing]

The antipodean fruit growers site is down. A statement from the owner reads in part:

What I fear more than losing my site, being sued, or dealing with police is living in a world where [redacted by me as would be against MN talk guidelines] while normal people are not allowed to even discuss it.

The mob has already planned subsequent targets. Should we stay down, they will then attack 'gender critical' communities - especially those ran by and for women. No place can exist online which criticizes [redacted], and nothing would excite them more than this power and domination struggle being inflicted on a female space instead.

Posted for info.

And yet the vast majority of people still won't believe that TWAW.

Exactly. So the only tactic that trans activists have is to compel people to pretend to believe it through fear. Everyone who refuses to comply is booted off social media, reported to their employer, or threatened with violence.

As a tactic, that is only ever going to have limited effectiveness, though. There will always be some brave people like Allison Bailey and Maya Forstater who refuse to cave in. And eventually, like a game of whack-a-mole, more and more people find the courage to question what's going on. You can't report everyone to Twitter. You can't close down every website. You can't report everyone to their employer.

Eventually, the truth wins.

This interests me.

"It makes the Internet, as a whole, just the same as mainstream media. Only allowing acceptable debate and opinion"

All the filth and misogyny that's allowed is acceptable. No one's getting worked up about that. We're ok with it, apparently.

TRAs are not driving this, they're just being used as tools. The fact that their goals are literally impossible powers the whole project. Keep chasing the impossible carrot on a stick, don't look away from the carrot. The goal is arbitrary really, it just helps that it's impossible.

The ironic thing is they have no power. They are just convenient. Sorting out real structural oppression is hard. It requires radical solutions and often will be met by huge meaningful resistance.

Capital bowing to transgender rights campaigners is easy. It's a very small minority. It threatens nothing they care about, indeed it creates consumers and revenue streams. Its free lefty points to whatever organisation wants to seem liberal.

The likes of the Labour Party can jump onto it without spending a penny or threatening business. They get to talk in a way people think is left wing (it isnt) without actually having to do anything. Imagine if they wanted to address oppression of any other group? They would have to invest in childcare, or better maternity benefits, or spend money on ethnic minority communities.... much better to start self ID. Cheap and easy. Plus trans issues can be superimposed on any other group. Trans rights are women's rights, black trans women are the most vulnerable group etc. Its all encompassing. This is also why the Tories were front runners with this issue originally.

It's beneficial to the police too. Yes it inflates the hate crime stats but it also inflates the polices response to them. It risks no riots when they investigate and distracts from other hate crimes.

The right have also hugely benefited picking up confused and betrayed left wing dissenters.

Its party time for all power structures, its total win win for them and who cared about the fallout? It was just women whining anyway. They weren't arsed.

The moment the benefits of supporting "trans rights" are out weighed by the risks they will drop them like a fucking rock. We are already seeing it now. The risk of litigation from patients will inevitablylead to their richest supporter (the medical industry) pulling back.

> No one's getting worked up about that. We're ok with it, apparently.

The corporate web hasn't got down to that level of granularity / priority yet. Give it a few months. The normalnet has only ever become more restrictive and more heavily moderated over time. Does anyone feel like they can speak freely here? Everyone wants their own triggers censored in the name of the greater good.

'Eventually, the truth wins.'

It just swings back and forth tbh. Power and control comes and goes.

So are we just ignoring the fact that TRAs dox and threaten people, and screenshot their social media posts to share aroind and mock/criticise. Sure most of this isn't on a dedicated website (although a couple of TRAs have set up websites) and just on twitter, but what is the difference?

There's one problem with Barracker's essay.
"And be honest with yourself."

Even privately, this seems very hard for people. I've said on here before, OK, don't answer my question. You know full well you are ignoring it. Privately ask yourself 'why?' - is this not an issue you want to get straight even in your own mind? To articulate an honest position, even if it doesn't 'win' or doesn't please all sides?

I asked this previously, but it was deleted for using a term I didn't know wasn't acceptable on here.

Since KF as a collective is blindly being blamed as the cause of suicide in a few transgender people, what would happen it someone on KF was to commit suicide as a result of this targeted campaign by Keffals and their mob? Would that be reported as a death caused by the transgender community? Would it be acceptable to generalise about the transgender community as a whole?

I'd like to know what leverage was brought to bear on them. Their first statement was unequivocally, no. We are neutral, because our very livelihood depends upon it.

If everyone now knows that they can suddenly be persuaded otherwise, everyone is going to have a go.

It's clearly not true that the authorities were paying kiwi farms visit, so what possible leverage forced them to cave?

It's clearly not true that the authorities were paying kiwi farms visit, so what possible leverage forced them to cave?

I suspect the "they" in question changed. First statement probably reflects Prince's actual view (he's CEO and founder); the second one was after shareholder pressure, I'd guess.

The usual "fingers in every pie" investment funds pushing a lot of this ideological stuff by making it a requirement for various funding streams have sizeable chunks of ownership of CloudFlare.

Doesn't fully explain their motivation, but explains the flip. Prince thought he could hold the line, but he has to answer to the owners.

Would that be reported as a death caused by the transgender community?

haha. It would (of course) be reported as a death caused by transphobia. AFAIK at least one of the suicides blamed on KF was being harassed by trans people, not the KF crowd.

Agree with everyone who says that the TRAs are being weaponised by bigger forces here. Thank you all for the informative albeit scary posts.

If everyone now knows that they can suddenly be persuaded otherwise, everyone is going to have a go.

Corinna Cohn of the Heterodorx podcast has been compiling a list of people starting to do that.

twitter.com/heterodorx/status/1566204551149092864

Also a good thread starting "The world does not need KiwiFarms" (the gist being "but it needs someone doing what they're doing, and almost no-one else currently is"):

twitter.com/heterodorx/status/1566223655738146816

"I think this is at least partly mitigated by the fact that Marg doesn't understand the lie that Marg just repeated."

May I ask what this lie is?

I see a lot of criticism about Cloudflare, but kiwifarms were also dropped by their Russian host after a very short time for the same reasons. Their captcha provider also suspended their services. If I understand correctly the owner also lost his other (also controversial) websites in all this.

A number of independent different organisations have suspended services to kiwifarms.

"It's clearly not true that the authorities were paying kiwi farms visit"

Can you say this for certain? I don't think the authorities would be announcing themselves if they were.

I can say it for certain. Null has not been contacted or approached in any way by law enforcement or any state agency in connection with the termination of services / "takedown" of the site. The last time the feds contacted him IIRC was a few weeks ago, asking for information about one specific user. Null gave his standard reply, "Bring a warrant, then ok."

Having said that, I have no doubt that the farms is very much on the fed's radar. AFAIK it has been to some degree or other for years.

But there has been no contact in regards to this, much less any charges. If the site is so horrible, BRING CHARGES ALREADY.

May I ask what this lie is?

The lie about KF's IP addresses in the post I was quoting. I am curious to know where you got it from though. You clearly didn't write it, and I would be surprised that any mainstream media would have said that. They lie, but not that sort of obviously false TRA wish-fulfilment fantasy. Did you get it off Twitter or Reddit or some similar misinformation site?

dropped by their Russian host for the same reasons

(Technical aside - not a host, a DDoS mitigator)

What, the "emergency threat to life there's no time for law enforcement"? I haven't actually seen a citation to DDoS-Guard's reasons.

Still, law enforcement better hurry it up - their lack of action is making CloudFlare look increasingly silly. You'd almost think there weren't any crimes being commited or something.

PS KF is actually back up on the proper Internet, at least for now. I'll spare Marg any hints about the new address though, so Marg won't feel compelled to look at the horribleness again.

@MargaritaPie

Have you had time to think about the question I asked? If a user of Kiwi Farms ends up committing suicide off the back of the harassment campaign and threatens to dox all and any KF users, made by Keffals and their mob - would that be considered and publicised as a suicide "caused by the transgender community"?

A Chinese host/mitigator this time?

Is this the new norm for kiwifarms? Keep changing hosts every few days?

You really aren’t here to have you any kind of good faith conversation at all are you?

Hello?

Are you just talking at us rather than conversing?

"If a user of Kiwi Farms ends up committing suicide off the back of the harassment campaign and threatens to dox all and any KF users"

I've been following the topic the past couple of days including watching a live video stream with chat last night by someone who wishes KF to close which had about 4,000 viewers. I've never seen any threats (doxxing threats or otherwise) made against KF users or its owner anywhere, I just see a lot of people who care about the safety and welfare of LGBT people, and have a shared interest in de-platforming communities who organise hate campaigns which could threaten people's safety and cause harm to people.

I know views differ, this is just how I see it.

I've never seen any threats (doxxing threats or otherwise) made against KF users or its owner anywhere

That's funny, because I have.

Bernard

This poster never is, unless they want to bang on about prostitution for hours on end.

"That's funny, because I have"

I'm sorry to hear if there has been. Noone should be subject to harassment or threats regardless what their views are.