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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Antipodean fruit grower statement

1000 replies

nothingcomestonothing · 27/08/2022 13:44

The antipodean fruit growers site is down. A statement from the owner reads in part:

What I fear more than losing my site, being sued, or dealing with police is living in a world where [redacted by me as would be against MN talk guidelines] while normal people are not allowed to even discuss it.

The mob has already planned subsequent targets. Should we stay down, they will then attack 'gender critical' communities - especially those ran by and for women. No place can exist online which criticizes [redacted], and nothing would excite them more than this power and domination struggle being inflicted on a female space instead.

Posted for info.

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21
Fizzynonsense · 05/09/2022 20:48

Hopefully this won’t be deleted, but I found this a really interesting and helpful guide to Tor and the ‘dark web’. I learned a lot. Browsing the deep web is not illegal.

https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/anonymous-browsing/how-to-get-on-the-dark-web/

If on an iPhone downloading a VPN and the onion browser is very simple.

(It suggests a particular VPN but there are lots of providers. A VPN is a very good idea to protect oneself from hackers irrespective of whether or not you want to use Tor).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2022 20:54

Oh and most GCs are men

No they aren't, it's complete nonsense.

NecessaryScene · 05/09/2022 20:56

Hopefully this won’t be deleted, but I found this a really interesting and helpful guide to Tor and the ‘dark web’.

That's all a bit OTT, tbh. Just get hold of Brave (a Chrome-based browser), and select "New private window with Tor" in the menu. That's it.

Maybe some useful tips on that page for people really wanting to cover their tracks, but if it's just "read Kiwi Farms" - ie just browsing a Tor URL, then Brave's easy.

Anyway, just found a good, basically accurate Substack article about the whole Keffals vs Kiwi Farms mess, with lots of background on both sides. By a transwoman, to boot.

defaultfriend.substack.com/p/suicide-by-kiwi-farms

Fizzynonsense · 05/09/2022 21:08

Ah ok, thanks, really helpful @NecessaryScene I’m another in need of a Ladybird guide to teh interwebs, using brave would have been less of a palaver.

This had me in stitches. It’s about where I am with tech stuff. Confusing the dark web with dark mode. 😀

MargaritaPie · 05/09/2022 22:47

Link for my earlier claim:
www.washingtonpost.com/business/2nd-web-hosting-provider-drops-harassment-site-kiwi-farms/2022/09/05/36f5ddde-2d5f-11ed-bcc6-0874b26ae296_story.html

"NEW YORK — Web-hosting provider DDoS-Guard said Monday that it had stopped providing its services to Kiwi Farms, becoming the second provider in two days to abandon the stalking and harassment site and leaving it inaccessible on the public internet."

MargaritaPie · 05/09/2022 22:54

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 05/09/2022 22:59

Quite obviously hate will win

its ‘winning’ right now

people that hate KF are attacking it and taking it down

TheClogLady · 05/09/2022 23:00

More clocks for Marge ⏰⏰

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 05/09/2022 23:03

such attention seeking 😀

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 05/09/2022 23:03

Not you obviously clog

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2022 23:10

Can be accessed by Caro's and Necessary's methods below still. Doesn't seem all that difficult.

SongAtTwiighlight · 05/09/2022 23:40

Thank you for the link, NecessaryScene:

defaultfriend.substack.com/p/suicide-by-kiwi-farms

Focusing on that article: don't know if it's relevant, but here goes anyway. That substack article very much reminded me of the following from a seminal article, Pronouns are Rohypnol, which I understand appeared first on Mumsnet FWR, got deleted fairly quickly by our external monitors and supervisors, but was then reinstated again due to obvious misunderstanding, apparently.

Anyway, Fair Play For Women published it very shortly afterwards. Here's that link to the complete post: fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Reading the aforementioned substack link put me very much in mind of this passage in "Pronouns are Rohypnol":

"2) The cost of HEARING or READING preferred pronouns from others:

"Try this next experiment. For a week, re-translate all the transgender articles and comments you find, back to sex-based pronouns, nouns and original names. Rewrite them back to the blunt truth and then read them again. Doing this exercise solely in your mind will do just fine, but editing on a screen is better.

"Convert female pronouns back to male; use surnames instead of first names, and convert terms like transwoman back to just ‘man’.

"Better yet, if you know the original name of the subject, use it, be it David, or Rhys, or Ashton, or Jonathan.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, yes? It shouldn’t matter. No-one else will be hurt or affected by this private experiment. It’s entirely between you, and your own resilient mind.

"(Try not to get banned from anywhere during this experiment)

"Read your translated version again.

"If those small acts of preferred pronoun and compliance are truly meaningless concessions, (although, see above banning potential for contradictory evidence of import) given as a courtesy to others at no cost to you or to other women, then this private exercise will change nothing, cost nothing, affect no-one. You’ll walk away thinking, yep, as I thought, fuss about nothing.

"Example article extract, corrected to male offender pronouns:

" He was placed by Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court on a three-year community payback order at the end of January.

"In February last year, he filmed a girl over a cubicle partition with h mobile phone and a month later he shoved another girl back into a cubicle, grabbed her face and ordered her to remove her trousers."

"After all, nothing should change, should it, simply with the alteration of pronouns and names? You already know the actual sex of the subject you’re reading about. Pronouns, male or female, add no incremental information. How can they in any way alter your perception, or influence you when you already know all the facts? They’re an irrelevance, the easiest concession to make. Not worth consideration, inconsequential. Right?

"Cognitively, you should be immune to the effects of such linguistic cross-dressing. Pronouns are irrelevant, so you concede them easily, because they have no power to influence you, since you already see clearly. Yes?

"[And you can confess here, it’s OK. You may already think that the minority of women who refuse to comply with pronouns are just awkward buggers, who can’t think strategically, don’t know when to let it go, probably are extremists. Do themselves no favours, damage their own ‘cause’, even. Unreasonable.]

"But try the experiment. Translate pronouns and references back to male. Insert ‘dead-names’ or use surnames. (No-one will know but you) Read it a second time. And be honest with yourself.

"Do you feel differently, on reading it this way?

"Do you react differently?

"How’s your anxiety?

"Are you angrier?

"Do you feel more scared?

"Is your sense of injustice alerted?

"What level have your natural defences armed to?

"You may discover that, despite yourself, you have a viscerally different reaction to what is before your eyes.

"Same story, same players, same core knowledge.

"Different pronouns, different reaction."

Just a thought.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2022 23:54

It's such a superlative essay.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2022 23:55

By wonderful Barracker.

Datun · 06/09/2022 00:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/09/2022 23:55

By wonderful Barracker.

It really is. I miss her so much.

And of course, no one I know actually uses female pronouns for men. I certainly don't when I'm reading or hearing. And when I'm speaking online, or in person to anyone I know, we automatically say his, him, man. And we don't accommodate any numerous name changes, either.

I have to remember not to do it on here, in order to not be deleted.

But in my head, it's second nature.

I mean, it is for most people. Almost everybody slips up. It's obvious they are having to concentrate in order not to.

SongAtTwiighlight · 06/09/2022 00:23

Yes, the wonderful Barracker!

It is an excellent essay.

Just got sparked, when I read that interesting link posted by NecessaryScene. My first attempt to post that link as a clicky link failed, so here's another attempt:
defaultfriend.substack.com/p/suicide-by-kiwi-farms

Bearing in mind the advice given by Barracker as I quoted above. Brings a very different situation.

It is interesting and illuminating

Saucery · 06/09/2022 06:25

That’s a really good, measured piece about what’s going on, thank you for posting it.

Miffee · 06/09/2022 06:45

I don't think KF is a big loss to anything but I think what's happened to it has made it really clear just how curated the Internet is now.

My understanding is the owner had as much ownership as one person can on his site but that the Web now makes reliance on large third party providers essential.

It makes the Internet, as a whole, just the same as mainstream media. Only allowing acceptable debate and opinions.

The people celebrating KFs demise should consider what will happen if the tide turns on them. Indeed many on the anti-KF side claim that laws and media are turning on them. Have they considered what this might mean for them in the future?

I may not agree with some peoples views on sex and gender but I absolutely believe they should be able to voice those opinions. They nature of any "debate" at the moment means that one or both sides will usually claim the other side is causing tangible and significant harm. Hysterical claims of risk is the go to position for any debate online. Then you present your harm to the net overlords and demand justice. Be that Facebook, Cloudflare, server providers or whatever.

It's horrifying really thay these private businesses are the ones who get to decide what we read and the parameters of any discussion. They will necessarily always take the side of profit, they do not give a single shit about any side of any debate in any kind of moral way.

I don't think it's new, I think it just makes clear something that has been true for a long time. It should worry everybody on all "sides".

NecessaryScene · 06/09/2022 06:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NecessaryScene · 06/09/2022 06:59

I don't think anybody's posted any of Null's Monday morning message here, so I'll rectify that, as it's partly on the same theme as the last couple of posts:

In my life, there is a family emergency. It has absolutely nothing to do with the forum drama. I cannot and will not elaborate further. There will be a week or more where I am completely unavailable and it is likely the site will go down during this time where I will not be able to bring it up.

[...]

This is an organized attack. There is a coalition of criminals trying to frame the forum for their behavior. These criminals provide opportunities for professional victims to amplify their message. Journalists canonize the crimes as the behavior of the forum itself, which becomes the effective truth for the general public.

This is a machine that was built up formerly against 8chan and activates any time the cathedral wants to test the new fronts of its censorship. It is a massive amalgamation of various interests. I am one person. The financial limitations aren't even the real problem - the problem is, I am powerless alone. There is no amount of money I can throw to convince people to be brave and be free. This is just the reality of our country.

And what this machine will not accept is compromise. If I censored specific kinds of behavior, it would not matter. They don't want a specific thing censored. They want the average person to be able to speak in channels where only specific thoughts are acceptable.

More importantly, they want to make it so that no small organization can host a service which threatens the cathedral. It used to be that one guy with a good idea could open a platform and be a Tom Anderson, Mark Zuckerberg, Tom Fulp, Christopher Poole, or Richard Kyanka. Take note these names are all from 10+ years ago. There are no new groundbreakers online anymore because breaking ground in the new Internet's corporate parking lot is not allowed.

[...]

kittensinthekitchen · 06/09/2022 07:25

These last few posts are chilling.

I'm beginning to feel like a conspiracy theorist actually to say this, but wake up people, see what they are doing.

Sonnex · 06/09/2022 07:27

And yet the vast majority of people still won't believe that TWAW. That's the truly sad thing. The TRAs are trying to police and censor the internet for an entirely unachievable goal. No one, apart from themselves, believes that TWAW and increasingly fewer casual bystanders will due to their behaviour. They're acting like fascists to try and stop the so-called fascists from believing something that they will always believe. It's so pointless and weird that so called oppressed people choose to behave like Marg. And nobody will forget the information that was archived by sites like KF, it will just pop up elsewhere.

NecessaryScene · 06/09/2022 07:29

I'm curious to see what CloudFlare's next move is.

They're justifying the ongoing block due to an "unprecedented emergency where there's no time for law enforcement to take action".

After how many days of no moves from law enforcement, and nothing actually happening despite the site remaining accessible (via Tor), does this position become untenable?

Are they going to lift the block, or come up with a new statement explaining why they haven't lifted it yet?

Or is it just going to be a permanent "unprecedented emergency where there's no time for law enforcement to take action"?

sleepwbutterflies · 06/09/2022 07:38

Miffee, NecessaryScene, and Josh have said it all as far as I can tell. Thank you for these informative posts. I am exactly in agreement as far as the significance of the farms getting cancelled from the [now] corporate/state clearnet. This is the death knell of the free open web. I've been in tech since the 90's. We always knew this was coming. And still I have been the frog in the boiling pot. Cooked before I even saw it was happening. I dropped everything I was doing 2 weeks ago to focus exclusively on this, yet truthfully I didn't put it all together until earlier today.

I'm going to speculate further that this is specifically "someone's" solution to the escalating "misinformation" panic in the U.S. Which the media, and now the administration, have used to characterize discourse about Covid, and elections. I think "someone" has been especially concerned about the elections. I think perhaps whoever is doing this have undertaken a project to reduce the chances of another "2016 surprise". Can't be democratically voting for the "wrong" candidate by accident now. It won't do any longer. [<--- sarcasm and speculation]

nothingcomestonothing · 06/09/2022 07:39

The 'most vulnerable and oppressed' certainly have a lot of power. And although MSM are going with the preferred narrative that KF is a hate and harassment site, every time I lurk there the site is registering 1000 members and 4000 visitors currently viewing. Sometimes it's 6000+ visitors. So despite this concerted attempt to shut down access to evidenced facts on various people who'd prefer the general public not know them, 1000s of extra people are looking at KF, all the time. Small but measurable sunlight.

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