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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is Allison Bailey's spaghetti briefcase?

375 replies

Drastic · 20/08/2022 13:20

Like the title says really, I'm seeing it all over twitter today and I haven't got a clue what it's about.

OP posts:
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7
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 16:48

This is the open letter from WPUK.

After attendees, staff and volunteers were subject to an abusive protest at our recent meeting, A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison, we have written the following letter to the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) calling on them to repudiate racism, misogyny and other abuse at any protests they are associated with.

As this is a matter of great importance for feminists, socialists, people of colour and trade unionists we feel it is essential that any exchange of views is in the public domain.

This blog contains details of misogynistic, racist and other abuse.

Dear SWP,

Your paper’s coverage of the protests against Professor Kathleen Stock at the University of Sussex made it clear that the SWP believes it is legitimate for women who recognise that sex is a material reality to be harassed and intimidated at their workplace. The protests have now resulted in Professor Stock being obliged to leave the university. While the piece does say that women like us should not be driven out of our jobs, it gave a signal to your members that they have your organisation’s support if they take part in such protests, whatever the professional or personal impact on the targeted woman.

D, who identifies as an SWP member on Twitter, organised just such a protest at our public meeting A Woman’s Place Is (Not) In Prison on Wednesday October 27th at the QE2 Centre in London.

D’s public Twitter feed encourages people to join the SWP. D has retweeted statements suggesting that protesting at events like ours is a form of “anti-fascist solidarity”. The same individual also tweeted the time and location of our meeting encouraging people to protest at it and described Joanna Cherry MP and women who share her opinions as “absolute Nazis”.

Almost 600 women had bought tickets to hear an all-woman panel discuss how prison punishes women for being poor, violently abused and vulnerable. It was a meeting which would have been of interest to any socialist or feminist as it was discussing the cruelties of the prison system and alternatives to it for vulnerable working-class women.

There were only about six protestors and videos of them are circulating widely online.

Our event coincided with a conference for Black people in business as part of Black History Month.

People attending our event and the Black business meeting, venue staff and our stewards were subjected to the most extreme outpouring of racist and misogynistic abuse. The apparent organiser and leader of the protest, D, and the SWP by association, bear responsibility for the protestors’ language and behaviour.

These include comments such as:

“Shut the f×ck up, you c×nt” shouted into the face of our chief steward.

“Call Weightwatchers, your body’s not doing it.”

“Your hair is minging, buy a weave.”

“Your breath smells like you’ve been eating ar×e, have you been eating her a×se?”

“Are you a lesbian? No man would want that.”

“Your breasts are on the floor, buy a bra and some hair dye too.”

“You fucking bald b×tch.”

“You’re a stuck-up b×tch.”

“I have a better body than you. Like, you have no bum. How do you sit down? What kind of man would want you? A blind man?”

“We don’t want pensioners. We don’t want dinosaurs like all you lot. You are not going to be around in 40 years. Well, 40’s a push.”

“You call yourself a woman? DIE! DIE! DIE!”

To people arriving for the Black Business event (who did not interact with the protestors):

“You went through slavery, you went through discrimination, rape, sexual harassment, the slave masters raped and sexually abused you and now you are abusing me, as a trans woman?”

“You were persecuted. You were nothing under slavery.”

“You look me in the eye. Your ancestors went through slavery and you are here. Hang your head in shame. Slave Master! Yes! Slave Master!”

“You call yourself Black people?”

“Why are you here? Are you supporting these Nazis? Are you supporting neo-Nazis?”

We are asking that the SWP openly stands up to racism and misogyny organised and facilitated by one of its members. As a self-described socialist taking part in the protest and someone who has spoken on behalf of Stand Up To Racism, D had a duty either to tell his collaborators to stop the racism, misogyny and offensive behaviour against women at the venue or to walk away from it. D did neither but instead contributed to it.

It will be apparent to you from watching the videos that our activists refused to engage with the abuse. We are committed to respectful debate on questions of sex and gender with people who disagree with us.

The intimidation to which we were subjected by people who are practising what you preach will not prevent us from organising other major events in the coming months.

We are part of a resurgent women’s liberation movement to which your group is hostile. We accept that, but we would like an assurance that if your members take your paper’s advice and protest against us that they will not permit abusive, racist, misogynistic behaviour at mobilisations for which you are politically responsible.

Some of our activists work alongside SWP members in unions and campaigns. This is an impossible relationship to maintain if people in the SWP are saying in public that we are equivalent to fascists. If this is now the approved position of the SWP it needs to be stated explicitly. If it is not, that also needs to be stated explicitly, if only for the benefit of your members who seem unclear on the question.

The best way for your organisation to do that is to publish a public statement unequivocally repudiating racism, ageism and misogyny which will remind your supporters that they are unacceptable in every circumstance.

WPUK

You can read the letter to the SWP here

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 16:51

Helleofabore · 21/08/2022 16:45

Oh.... yes. That reminds me. Jane Fae made some quite racist remarks about a woman protesting the areas of conflicts between the rights of females of all ages, and those of trans people.

An appalling act. Yet, I have not seen hearache once answer the 10 or more times I have asked the question if they are holding Jane Fae, Peter Tatchell and Nancy Kelley to the highest level of purity that they are insisting on keeping Allison Bailey held to in their vilification of women who disagree with hearache.

I also note that hearache misses out on one of the protected characteristics, that of 'sex'.

I would like to see hearache discuss the sexism that has been integrally intertwined in the movements that hearache seems to be deeply involved in. Does hearache call out those who are making those comments?

Would hearache even recognise sexism?

Yes. JF made insulting, derogatory remarks about the colour of a young mixed-race woman's skin.

VestofAbsurdity · 21/08/2022 16:55

Yes. JF made insulting, derogatory remarks about the colour of a young mixed-race woman's skin.

Par for the course, a regular name changing poster on here did the same on a thread I recall, unfortunately for that poster their posting style is so obvious that the name change doesn't hide it we all know who it is. Racism and homophobia are embedded in TRA/Gender Ideology.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 16:57

This is the SWP's reply. Note how they do not even mention the racism, never mind repudiate it.

Trans people are facing a barrage of attacks.

The Socialist Workers Party (SWP) stands with the oppressed and unequivocally says, “Trans women are women,” and, “Trans men are men.” Trans people have the right to organise against their oppression and the right to protest against it. We stood in solidarity with the trans students and workers at the University of Sussex who were rightly outraged by Kathleen Stock’s views.

The SWP did not organise or encourage the protest outside the Woman’s Place UK meeting in London on Wednesday 27 October. Our materials, such as Socialist Worker and placards, were not on the protest and those centrally involved in the protest are not SWP members.

However, we understand that two people in a video of the protest are SWP members, who took part as individuals. One of those individuals uses unacceptable sexist language and behaviour towards a woman involved in the WPUK meeting. The party will investigate this in accordance with our procedures.

The attacks on trans rights are pushed by the Tories and the wider right—and go hand in hand with attacks on women’s rights. Our focus is fighting the right wing—and for a socialist society that uproots all oppression

Helleofabore · 21/08/2022 16:58

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 16:48

This is the open letter from WPUK.

After attendees, staff and volunteers were subject to an abusive protest at our recent meeting, A Woman’s Place is NOT in prison, we have written the following letter to the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) calling on them to repudiate racism, misogyny and other abuse at any protests they are associated with.

As this is a matter of great importance for feminists, socialists, people of colour and trade unionists we feel it is essential that any exchange of views is in the public domain.

This blog contains details of misogynistic, racist and other abuse.

Dear SWP,

Your paper’s coverage of the protests against Professor Kathleen Stock at the University of Sussex made it clear that the SWP believes it is legitimate for women who recognise that sex is a material reality to be harassed and intimidated at their workplace. The protests have now resulted in Professor Stock being obliged to leave the university. While the piece does say that women like us should not be driven out of our jobs, it gave a signal to your members that they have your organisation’s support if they take part in such protests, whatever the professional or personal impact on the targeted woman.

D, who identifies as an SWP member on Twitter, organised just such a protest at our public meeting A Woman’s Place Is (Not) In Prison on Wednesday October 27th at the QE2 Centre in London.

D’s public Twitter feed encourages people to join the SWP. D has retweeted statements suggesting that protesting at events like ours is a form of “anti-fascist solidarity”. The same individual also tweeted the time and location of our meeting encouraging people to protest at it and described Joanna Cherry MP and women who share her opinions as “absolute Nazis”.

Almost 600 women had bought tickets to hear an all-woman panel discuss how prison punishes women for being poor, violently abused and vulnerable. It was a meeting which would have been of interest to any socialist or feminist as it was discussing the cruelties of the prison system and alternatives to it for vulnerable working-class women.

There were only about six protestors and videos of them are circulating widely online.

Our event coincided with a conference for Black people in business as part of Black History Month.

People attending our event and the Black business meeting, venue staff and our stewards were subjected to the most extreme outpouring of racist and misogynistic abuse. The apparent organiser and leader of the protest, D, and the SWP by association, bear responsibility for the protestors’ language and behaviour.

These include comments such as:

“Shut the f×ck up, you c×nt” shouted into the face of our chief steward.

“Call Weightwatchers, your body’s not doing it.”

“Your hair is minging, buy a weave.”

“Your breath smells like you’ve been eating ar×e, have you been eating her a×se?”

“Are you a lesbian? No man would want that.”

“Your breasts are on the floor, buy a bra and some hair dye too.”

“You fucking bald b×tch.”

“You’re a stuck-up b×tch.”

“I have a better body than you. Like, you have no bum. How do you sit down? What kind of man would want you? A blind man?”

“We don’t want pensioners. We don’t want dinosaurs like all you lot. You are not going to be around in 40 years. Well, 40’s a push.”

“You call yourself a woman? DIE! DIE! DIE!”

To people arriving for the Black Business event (who did not interact with the protestors):

“You went through slavery, you went through discrimination, rape, sexual harassment, the slave masters raped and sexually abused you and now you are abusing me, as a trans woman?”

“You were persecuted. You were nothing under slavery.”

“You look me in the eye. Your ancestors went through slavery and you are here. Hang your head in shame. Slave Master! Yes! Slave Master!”

“You call yourself Black people?”

“Why are you here? Are you supporting these Nazis? Are you supporting neo-Nazis?”

We are asking that the SWP openly stands up to racism and misogyny organised and facilitated by one of its members. As a self-described socialist taking part in the protest and someone who has spoken on behalf of Stand Up To Racism, D had a duty either to tell his collaborators to stop the racism, misogyny and offensive behaviour against women at the venue or to walk away from it. D did neither but instead contributed to it.

It will be apparent to you from watching the videos that our activists refused to engage with the abuse. We are committed to respectful debate on questions of sex and gender with people who disagree with us.

The intimidation to which we were subjected by people who are practising what you preach will not prevent us from organising other major events in the coming months.

We are part of a resurgent women’s liberation movement to which your group is hostile. We accept that, but we would like an assurance that if your members take your paper’s advice and protest against us that they will not permit abusive, racist, misogynistic behaviour at mobilisations for which you are politically responsible.

Some of our activists work alongside SWP members in unions and campaigns. This is an impossible relationship to maintain if people in the SWP are saying in public that we are equivalent to fascists. If this is now the approved position of the SWP it needs to be stated explicitly. If it is not, that also needs to be stated explicitly, if only for the benefit of your members who seem unclear on the question.

The best way for your organisation to do that is to publish a public statement unequivocally repudiating racism, ageism and misogyny which will remind your supporters that they are unacceptable in every circumstance.

WPUK

You can read the letter to the SWP here

I remember seeing the video footage of that protest. It was again, not only all the things you mentioned, but it was very plainly sexist.

A transitioned male was denigrating females for their looks and the way they dressed etc.

In fact, those types of sexist comments come all too frequently here and on twitter from people within the LGBT movement. I remember some people commenting about Allison's looks too.

But definitely Fae has been racist and incredibly sexist in the past. Yet, still welcomed as a spokesperson for LGBT issues...

And other activists (and hearache) simply cannot seem to bring themselves to acknowledge this. How bizarre ?

Helleofabore · 21/08/2022 17:00

VestofAbsurdity · 21/08/2022 16:55

Yes. JF made insulting, derogatory remarks about the colour of a young mixed-race woman's skin.

Par for the course, a regular name changing poster on here did the same on a thread I recall, unfortunately for that poster their posting style is so obvious that the name change doesn't hide it we all know who it is. Racism and homophobia are embedded in TRA/Gender Ideology.

Yes, I remember. And they still are a regular poster on these boards. Censuring others still, while ignoring their contribution on that thread...

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 17:03

I remember that, Purgatory. Appalling racist, sexist and ableist abuse.

twitter.com/thewomencov/status/1453507344776798216?s=20

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 17:04

VestofAbsurdity · 21/08/2022 16:55

Yes. JF made insulting, derogatory remarks about the colour of a young mixed-race woman's skin.

Par for the course, a regular name changing poster on here did the same on a thread I recall, unfortunately for that poster their posting style is so obvious that the name change doesn't hide it we all know who it is. Racism and homophobia are embedded in TRA/Gender Ideology.

That very same poster replied to another discussion of the SWP's behaviour, and asked if I had considered whether the SWP's statement, as posted above, "had a point".

Do I think the SWP "have a point" when they ignore a member aiding and abetting racial harasment of black people walking past?

No, I do not. But it's striking that poster didn't notice or care that the SWP ignored the racism!

Here's WPUK again

WPUK response to SWP statement

The Socialist Workers Party reply to our letter about the behaviour of the protestors outside the event says that two of those taking part are members of the organisation. That is to say that they comprised at least one third of a protest which went on for about an hour and a half and was nothing but aggressive behaviour, racist, ageist and misogynistic abuse.

An evasive response from SWP

The reply is evasive on many of the substantive points we raised.

Publishing an article supporting the campaign of harassment against Kathleen Stock is, in the real world, the same as backing the calls for her to lose her job. This is unprecedented for an organisation which claims to act on behalf of workers.

It says nothing on the subject of whether or not women who believe that biological sex is immutable are fascists.

SWP failure to repudiate sexist and racist behaviour of members

We asked for a full repudiation of racist, sexist and misogynistic behaviour at protests SWP members take part in at gatherings of women. Not even that was forthcoming. The group was not even willing to criticise the racist display its members were part of.

We will leave it to women to pass the final judgement on what the SWP says and what it does. WPUK is committed to defending the right of women to self-organise without intimidation and harassment and we’ll keep on doing that.

As feminists we are determined to stand up for women in the prison system. In the coming months our supporters will be taking initiatives in support of these women in trade unions and other organisations and we are confident that anyone who seriously cares about women’s rights will support us.

WPUK

minutemade · 21/08/2022 17:18

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 17:03

I remember that, Purgatory. Appalling racist, sexist and ableist abuse.

twitter.com/thewomencov/status/1453507344776798216?s=20

That's awful, almost BFOS level bigotry.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 17:19

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 17:03

I remember that, Purgatory. Appalling racist, sexist and ableist abuse.

twitter.com/thewomencov/status/1453507344776798216?s=20

Absolutely sickening videos. You'd think any "normal movement for social change" wouldn't have been able to run fast enough to distance itself.

Not so TRAs or the SWP. I judge accordingly.

How dare anyone judge Allison Bailey for a nuanced statement acknowledging that all women, are affected by the new misogyny, when TRAs engage in this?

Helleofabore · 21/08/2022 17:27

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 17:03

I remember that, Purgatory. Appalling racist, sexist and ableist abuse.

twitter.com/thewomencov/status/1453507344776798216?s=20

Thank you for finding that and posting it.

It came after transitioned male activists shouted down a roll call of murdered women at the FILIA conference. And had chalked appalling messages about 'suck my trans dick' etc on the footpaths that children were walking on and that the women, including sexual abuse and assault survivors, had to pass.

And yet.... the actions of Allison Bailey stating that her efforts are for all women, even those she disagrees with, is being held up as a signifier of her wrong doing.

I am not really sure how much more deaf to the reality some people can get.

Helleofabore · 21/08/2022 17:28

oh... crossed with purg.

christinarossetti39 · 21/08/2022 17:34

I was at that meeting - the TRAs behaviour was grossly racist, misogynistic and abusive not only to people coming to the WPUK meeting and their stewards, but also towards the people attending the Black Business Conference in the same building at the same time.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 17:41

It was vile. And yet the SWP and other trans activists have had no words of condemnation for it at all.

dropthevipers · 21/08/2022 19:20

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 17:41

It was vile. And yet the SWP and other trans activists have had no words of condemnation for it at all.

What do expect? SWP have always been the gold standard of batshit mentalism, they probably regard LOJ as being a bit suspect.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2022 20:42

Do you remember the Comrade Delta events? The SWP thought it was too bourgeois to report sexual assault and rape to the police and did an in-house investigation of a senior committee member instead.

You will be more shocked than a very shocked thing to hear that lots of victim-blaming ensued.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2022 21:02

Yes, that was shameful.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1675318-Is-there-a-thread-on-the-SWP-rape-investigation

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 21/08/2022 21:02

noraclavicle · 20/08/2022 19:09

If you know what the stereotype is, it’s really easy to see how it translates

It’s fucking jaw dropping. It’ll be interesting to see how Joanne Harris tries to explain this one away.

Body-shaming as well as racist.

I can hardly believe the misogynist who wrote this stuff thought they would get away with it.

You don't need to know American entertainment history to recognise the intended insult. It was very clear to me, though I had never heard of the American original trope: briefcase full of spaghetti = greedy person who is too stupid to be a real lawyer.

Cowgrrrl · 21/08/2022 21:11

briefcase full of spaghetti = greedy person who is too stupid to be a real lawyer.

So you don't think it's a specifically racist trope @ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus?

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 21/08/2022 21:28

Cowgrrrl · 21/08/2022 21:11

briefcase full of spaghetti = greedy person who is too stupid to be a real lawyer.

So you don't think it's a specifically racist trope @ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus?

Now that I know the original, Cowgrrrl, I recognise that it was racist in a very specific way. Since much of the TRAs' audience is American, the original would have been obvious to them.

To me without knowing it, the text said "stupid clumsy fat (because greedy) black woman".

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 22:00

minutemade · 21/08/2022 17:18

That's awful, almost BFOS level bigotry.

What is BFOS?

Tamworthian · 21/08/2022 22:13

I doubt she thinks she needs to, based on this from today.

Perhaps she feels ridicule doesn’t equal bullying when tweeting from her personal account…

What is Allison Bailey's spaghetti briefcase?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2022 22:18

She should really stop digging.

minutemade · 22/08/2022 07:35

PeriodBro · 21/08/2022 22:00

What is BFOS?

Briefcase
Full
Of
Spaghetti

turbonerd · 22/08/2022 07:52

Jesus, Purgatory, that was just vile to read. I am so sorry for the women there who experienced this!
People (tra) are nuts, there is no shame.

I’ll repeat this one: «That doesn’t mean I have to ally myself with racists or homophobes or that I will not call out such behaviour, just that I recognise that all women need to know that the struggle for women’s rights is their struggle too.»

Because what will you do if you just blank those you disagree with, even though their thoughts and actions are reprehensible?
I reckon it us better to try to bring them round. Otherwise the ice fronts will still be there when the battles are won, and the war will never be over.
Hopefully racists and homophobes can have a little think, see a different behaviour modeled, and if half change their hearts then that would be excellent.

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