Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Are we saying that a man can be attracted to another male who also has a penis but they are heterosexual if the male with a penis identifies as a woman but a man who is attracted to a female body builder is probably gay?

she referred to having known and worked alongside many women who were lesbians, or chose to become lesbians following their involvement in the movement. I queried if some people might find the suggestion that it is a choice offensive, but she was adamant it reflected the experience of the women she had known. After the piece was published I was discussing it with colleague who is a lesbian, and she said she found the reference to choice quite offensive, as she never felt she had a choice about her sexuality.

I don't think that this is hard to get your head around, given the historical context.

While "chose" might not be the most helpful verb, I would take that to mean that the women being referred to were either:

A) Lesbian, but had previously been in heterosexual relationships because of societal expectations, not to mention the law.

B) Bisexual, but decided to pursue only same sex relationships in the future.

Incidentally, gay people who have heterosexual relationships because they are unsure or afraid to come out are not any less gay.

So you are fine with men who are attracted to biological men still calling themselves heterosexual but if they dare to fancy a female athlete then they can't possibly be heterosexual

What a pile of jumbled thinking

Eddie fucking Izzard saying he’s a lesbian

does that not give you pause OP?

Seriously?

female body builders aren’t men. And their bodies come in a whole lot of different shapes and sizes depending on the class they compete in or what aesthetics they want.

and many female body builders look very different when not near competition time.

but generally like muscular women not like men.

Have a lovely time with your thought experiments. Play with whatever labels and exciting word definitions you choose, have fun. Just can you please not shit on others while you do so. That's all.

Top post @Artichokeleaves

I’m “exclusively” opposite sex attracted and you pretty much sun up the position for me, too. Thanks for saying it all so clearly.

And I’m just really sorry for all the crap that lesbians are having to deal with. Looks like lesbophobia never really went away even in our new “progressive” world.

Solidarity from a straight sister

people get so fixated on gender and ‘not asking about genitals’, that they forget that sexual orientation is about sex, which kind of boils down to genitals, at least some of the time

if I coped off with someone and found they had a vagina I’d be pretty fucking surprised, followed by immediately turned off

given the history of corrective rape of lesbians, ignoring the fact that

1. most trans women have penises
2. lesbians want nothing to do with penises

is particularly egregious

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.

Hmmm , I’m not a body builder but I lift - at least 1.5 times my own body weight. I’m strong as fuck. I have visibly hard muscles. And heterosexual men love it.

Hetero means same, heterosexual means same-sex attracted.

I think you’ve got your words mixed up @StillHappy !

‘Hetero’ doesn’t mean ‘same’, and ‘heterosexual’ doesn’t mean ‘same-sex attracted’.

Yes, bag mental fart there. Hetero meaning other, and heterosexual meaning opposite sex attracted.

Homo being the antonym.

The side effect of telling lies like men can be women if they say they are, or lesbians are attracted to dick, is the destruction of our collective sense that we use to orient ourselves in the world. If we lose our shared understanding of language and allow a minority to openly twist reality to suit their own political purpose, then we can no longer trust the world and others in it.
Orwell predicted this:

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."

If your friend wants to call herself a lesbian she is perfectly at liberty to do so. But the reality is she is bisexual.

^^ pretty much nails it.

Everyone is at liberty to call themselves any labels and identities they want. In reality, others will follow their own objective perceptions and are under no obligation to participate.

Same. I am athletic and visibly muscular and it has never put off men. On the other hand I do have to confess that it was when associating with other muscular women that I first realised I was also attracted to women. Something about a woman with a well defined deltoid can drive me crazy. Perhaps @BootsAndRoots would just consider me straight for being into muscular women.

Too many of these people seem to have read the appendix on Nuspeak and taken it as a how-to manual rather than a warning.

Change the language, and you take away the ability to even discuss a aconcept, let alone argue against it.

One very clear example of how that is now used was of course on here today "Thay male is a woman, so completely entitled to use the women's changing room."

Artichoke, I must say I love every post of yours. Fantastic thinker and writer.

OP - read Kathleen Stocks material girls if you want to understand why we need words to have boundaries in order for them to adequately describe things.

Females who ONLY fancy females have a word - lesbian. It has been their word for a long time. They have fought hard to have that word, and to be treated equally and respected in society.

If some women fancy females and males, they do not fit in the previous category. They have a word - bisexual. They can fancy males who identify and express themselves in all different ways.

If the women who fancy females and also specifically 'transwomen' want their own word, fantastic. They could call themselves blergs, or lesbitrans or whatever they want to create for themselves. If they dont feel bisexual, pan sexual, demi sexual and sexi-flux don't adequately describe them, then crack on.

However they cannot take the word lesbian, because in doing so, that would change the definition of the word lesbian. Then all the females who ONLY fancy females would have no word to describe themselves any longer, and would need to find a new word. Its pretty coloniol, just turning up, booting out the natives, trashing the place and making it suit you. Disrespectful of other people quite frankly.

Nicely said, Blessed - and I agree with you 100% about Artichoke's excellent posts.

What is the purpose of "non-trans woman"? The word is woman.

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.

holy shit. Old school misogyny, old school homophobia and old school toxic masculinity all rolled up together in one small-minded sentence by a person who undoubtedly believes themselves to be progressive. Wow, just wow.

these people are entirely broken.

It means "I'm lesbian/gay and not attracted to trans people." It is only something that gender critical people ever say and most gays and lesbians are highly unlikely ever use the phrase.

The TWs I have met who might possibly ‘pass’ (as long as the didn’t speak / walk / stand up) have tended to be attracted to gay men for some reason. The TWs who seem to be attracted to females tend not to ‘pass’.
I guess you’d eventually find out the truth once you looked at their medicine cabinet and saw all the hormones they be taking for life.

Trans activists hate women, it seems. How messed up do you have to be; how unpleasant to not only think it but to then come out and say that an athletic woman is a man?

How disingenuous. You lot just can’t help yourselves can you?

Normal people tend to have a sexual preference, not a gender preference. Someone who is sexually attracted to women is not suddenly going to be attracted to a man when he decides to identify as female.

How surprising that you totally ignored this, the second post on the thread OP.

Is the truth @Artichokeleaves is telling hurting you?

Lesbian is defined in law and by the overwhelming majority of society as a female exclusively same sex attracted to females. People who are not do not fit this definition and have no business appropriating it.

"Someone who is sexually attracted to women is not suddenly going to be attracted to a man when he decides to identify as female."

Plenty of lesbians out there who date trans women.