Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Oops sorry, cross post. The problem as I see it with your last post is that lesbian does have a single, universally agreed definition - an exclusively same-sex attracted woman - and no amount of obfuscation will change that definition. Your friend is welcome to enter into a relationship with a male but in doing so she changes the definition applied to her sexuality from lesbian to bisexual.

Since I am heterosexual, I will speak about heterosexuals. I am
exclusively attracted to males. I’m old enough that the Kinsey scale used to be something we talked about and I am extremely far to one end on that scale. My attraction to males and lack of attraction to females is very firm.

if I met someone who I perceived to be male, developed an attraction, and later found out they were female, my identity would not change. My perception was wrong and my attraction would likely update. Attraction updates all the time when you find out new information about a person. It can be as simple as finding out he has the wrong political views or that he isn’t nice to his parents. it would certainly update if you found out he wasn’t actually male.

Are you suggesting there is no single trans woman in existence who a woman could chat to/kiss in a bar while still believing them to be a cis woman?

Are you suggesting that most transwomen pass? The answer is very obviously no, despite what trans people tell each other on Reddit. It is 99.9% of the time extremely clear when someone is trans.

Hence the very high majority of T4T couples.

If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women,

Woman, simply Woman is sufficient. The way you word it it's almost as if transwomen existed before women.
I think it a problem with the space between trans and woman, these individuals (born male who believe they are female) are not “a kind of female” they have a different origin and so transwo man, or transwoman seems clearer to me. Neither can be a lesbian in my opinion as that is exclusively for women.

What I find troubling is that a lot of people here think they are entitled to tell individual lesbians like my friend that they are not lesbians.

You find it troubling that people here know definitions and use them?

If your female friend is in a relationship with a male then she is either heterosexual or bisexual. Not a lesbian. As a lesbian is someone female who is only attracted to other females. Thats what words are, they mean things. It's why we have dictionaries, so that everyone can understand the meanings of different words.

Interestingly, this is very similar to a discussion I had recently at work. A colleague, who I happen to know is GC, had written a piece for our intranet about the importance of lesbians in the women’s rights movement, and in the article she referred to having known and worked alongside many women who were lesbians, or chose to become lesbians following their involvement in the movement. I queried if some people might find the suggestion that it is a choice offensive, but she was adamant it reflected the experience of the women she had known. After the piece was published I was discussing it with colleague who is a lesbian, and she said she found the reference to choice quite offensive, as she never felt she had a choice about her sexuality.

There are clearly many conflicting views and experiences on this.

That seems a pretty valid claim, yes.

Let’s be honest here, trans “women” are generally far closer to Eddie Izzard or Katie / Colin Mongomerie in appearance than they are to Kylie Minogue.

I am not redefining any word.

It is common knowledge that there are heterosexual men attracted to trans women. These men are not attracted to men and would never consider a relationship with a man.

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.

If you're attracted to a transwoman you're lesbian. If you find that she has a penis and you're still attracted to her and want to have sex with her, I would say you're not a lesbian.

It's a bit like those people who say they are vegetarian but eat chicken and fish. Yeah that isn't a vegetarian. So no, you can't unilaterally change words to mean your interpretation of them.

If you are sexually attracted to people who have a vagina and you want to be intimate with someone because you find vaginas sexually arousing then you are probably not going to be sexually aroused by a penis, regardless how the person it's attached to identifies.

And that's ok!

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.
wtf?!?!?

Then they are not heterosexual, they are gay or bisexual.

Come on, heterosexual as an etymology that even the average TRA can understand. Hetero means same, heterosexual means same-sex attracted.

Your statement is no different to saying that you know many vegans who live an omnivorous diet with lots of meat in it.

My own position is that language around sexuality is necessarily evolving and to some extent subjective,

It isn't evolving - that implies an organic, accepted morph into different words or definitions. The words woman and lesbian have been forcibly co-opted by others to further their world view.

If your friend wants to call herself a lesbian she is perfectly at liberty to do so. But the reality is she is bisexual. The actual real living accepted definition of the word.

There are no fluffy edges which need to be taken into account. We must keep the words we use in common usage that the man on the Clapham
Omnibus would understand. And that means a lesbian dating site should be assumed to be for females looking for other females. Not for those who wish to blur the boundaries.

Shit, I just read the last line. A female athlete is female. Claiming that they are not but that a man who claims he is really is is abhorrent. Down there with your “but what about black women then.”

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive.

Surely this is a joke?

Are you suggesting there is no single trans woman in existence who a woman could chat to/kiss in a bar while still believing them to be a cis woman?

Yes. Why is that so difficult to believe. The vast majority of sober women can tell very easily.

Google the experiment where men and women have a dozen lights added to them, then are asked to move in the dark so all you can see are the lights. Most women can STILL identify the men.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack there BootsandRoots

These gender police types really do come out with some utter fuckwittery don't they?

So men can be lesbians but if they fancy females with muscles they must be gay?

Whereas I would question the sexual orientation of men who find female body builders attractive

er, are you trying to say female body builders are basically men?

bizarre sexism

I am not a lesbian, but @Artichokeleaves’ post sums up exactly why I support the rights of lesbians to define themselves as biological females solely attracted to other biological females, and to have the right to refuse sex with trans women - especially as I believe over 90% of trans women retain their penis, and want to define penis in vagina sex as lesbian sex, and who share tips on how to get through the ‘cotton celing’ - aka get into lesbians’ knickers.

Mainly, I think, a hatred of women?

@BootsAndRoots , given your deeply unpleasant post about female bodybuilders, is it a fair guess to say that you yourself tend to err on the side of, well, less definition, athleticism and more towards sphéricity?

I also find the Kinsey scale quite helpful. I'm a 3. It feels a bit wrong to say I'm bisexual because I have never had any kind of established sexual relationship with a woman (a concept i do find really useful and recognise is compulsory heterosexuality in UK culture). However, I am sexually attracted to some women and enjoy sex with them. I'm sexually attracted to almost all men. I think I could say I'm bisexual.

I think that bisexuality is more common than we think, and I think it can be more difficult for bisexual people to understand that exclusive same sex attraction really exists. I also think sexuality for a lot of people is genuinely much more fluid and subject to multiple influences than we have yet learned how to deal with.

Having said all that; i do think that a lesbian describes a woman who is only attracted to women. Maybe there should be the word lesbian* or femmebian to describe women who are attracted to feminine presentation. Or stop bisexual erasure maybe?

It’s the complete ignoring of context

like the OP is completely unaware of just how much some men hate women who are sexually unavailable

like they’ve never encountered all those tremendously funny men who when they meet a lesbian say ‘me too!’, or ‘can I watch?’’ or some other startling witticism

like the OP is unaware of corrective rape and all those creepy men who just want to prove that she hasn’t met the right man yet when they come across a lesbian

and now those creepy fuckers have hoodwinked women like the OP into helping them! Mazel tov @aseriesofstillimages , you’re a pawn of the patriarchy!

aseriesofstillimages
Are you suggesting there is no single trans woman in existence who a woman could chat to/kiss in a bar while still believing them to be a cis woman?

You seem very interested in people not calling your friend bi because they fancy a man yet you also want to call women cis when no prefix is required.

Why is that?

If you want people to respect your and your friends choices why are you not respecting other people's choices?