Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

<quietly picks up the edible sea creatures and backs away to the bad science thread>

and who have their penises cut off?

We don't know whether her friend's partner still has a penis or not. Or is taking hormones. The OP never said (though it's a long thread and I might have missed it.) Not that it's really our business.

And I have other questions about this (possibly hypothetical) lesbian friend's relationship. Also questions which can only be answered hypothetically, because they're also not our business.

Many women have sex they don't really enjoy for the sake of the relationship. That's why "being a lesbian" was seen as an active choice and not just secretly recognising an inner preference. It meant choosing to stop having the kind of sex you didn't find satisfying in relationships with partners you didn't want to have sex with, and choosing to seek out sex and relationships with the kind of partners you did find satisfying.

So unless you have a fixed ingrained notion that no-one sticks with a less than sexually satisfying relationship, the friend's choice of words raises a doubt about how satisfying she really finds sex with her partner. Especially if she has only been attracted to women before this one relationship, and she still wants to call herself a lesbian..... funny that.

But we can't ask the friend, and even if the OP knows the answer it's not something the she's going to tell us. Or at least I hope not! No good friend would share that wiith us.

Exactly this.
Actually this thread is so vile only a Bunbury jellyfish can save it.
Jellyfish knitted hat pattern

www.thebigknit.devonartist.co.uk/YourPatterns/JellyFish.html

Sorry to imply your mother might disapprove of incest!
Now I think about it, you've talked about her before. As I recall you said you were going to ask her if she would mind mixed-sex hospital wards, but that you anticipated she wouldn't mind.

During the same thread, you also suggested that if a teenage girl in hospital found it intimidating to have a man opposite her or in the next bed, the solution to the problem was for the male patients to come over and introduce themselves.

That is, insert themselves nearer to an intimidated vulnerable girl in a situation where she can't get away, and initiate a conversation.

I hope your mother wouldn't mind mixed-sex hospital wards, because I don't think you are capable of advocating for her to staff if she wants single-sex anything and doesn't receive it.

Oh... well that probably does answer the three situations that aseries would agree with centring the males needs.

I mean, I think I remember them saying that it would be quite alright for an infant to receive a less nutritious meal to allow a male to be centred in the feeding regime of an infant if they stimulation some kind of liquid (as yet, composition untested) to feed that infant.

Like, you know. The infant doesn't matter, as long as the male feels like they get the experience and all.

I could not imagine what a teenaged girl would feel in that hospital situation.

I could not imagine what a teenaged girl would feel in that hospital situation.

Nor could OP. She simply wasn't capable of empathising with the girl.

Oh... well that probably does answer the three situations that aseries would agree with centring the males needs.

I mean, I think I remember them saying that it would be quite alright for an infant to receive a less nutritious meal to allow a male to be centred in the feeding regime of an infant if they stimulation some kind of liquid (as yet, composition untested) to feed that infant.

Like, you know. The infant doesn't matter, as long as the male feels like they get the experience and all.

There are words for that kind of horror and those who believe and promote it, pity I can't use them as I should be able to.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable.

People with an understanding of their own identity that isn't congruent with what society sees in them is not at all rare.
The idea that one is obliged to buy into anyone's definition of 'self-identity' is absurd. It is also unsustainable.

That is why for society to work there are objectifyable criteria and definitions in place, be it age of consent, age of retirement, sex-based protections, taxation based on actual income. (The numbers of really well-off people who consider themselves actually too poor to pay taxes are legion).

The thing is that words have defined meanings. And you can't change a definition just because a person who suddenly fancies a feminine male would like to remain in the 'lesbian' category.

It is not the end of the world to fall out of some definition based categorization. It simply is what it is. What is so awful about falling into the bi-category based on definition based classification? I frankly don't see the problem.

I'm fairly sure that this quite nicely in here

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153811/Police-remove-LESBIANS-Pride-march-Cardiff-Officer-tells-gender-critical-women-leave.html

Yes its the mail get over it. I'm sure that you can find it else where

But I am not sure what annoys me more.
That this isn't the first time that lesbians have been moved on from a gay pride parade.
That they weren't supposed to be somewhere that claims to represent them. (they weren't registered to attend! make of that what you will)
That the police said "whatever you are", whilst protecting trans people (the irony)
Or that pride claims to represent the views of the entire LGBT+ community which it clearly doesn't.

For me this runs alongside the LGB alliance being named as a hate group by the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism.

Here's an archived copy for the DM-phobic: web.archive.org/web/20220828113758/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11153811/Police-remove-LESBIANS-Pride-march-Cardiff-Officer-tells-gender-critical-women-leave.html

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity

People don't always understand definitions correctly and we are not obliged to go along with their misunderstanding even if we think that its in good faith.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity

This is such an odd statement.

Another persons 'understanding of their own identity' is of no bearing at all to others attraction to them.

I can 'identify' as being as gorgeous as Margot Robbie, but if that's manifestly not the case it would be ludicrous to expect others to go along with it. It would be a fiction in my own head.

That was a reference to correcting the lesbian’s understanding of her own identity as a lesbian.

But there’s a difference between a person adopting a definition of a word that is unique to them, and bears to relationship to the way other people use the term (eg a man saying ‘I have never been attracted to another man and have never been sexually intimate with another man, but I identify as gay’), and using a term in a way which many other people understand and agree with, even if others do not agree with it (eg a man saying ‘I am only attracted to men, and have been attracted to a trans man, and I identify as gay’).

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters (at least, if it was anything like london pride, which I attended).

On the first point I have a question for you - is it ok for men to be in changing rooms with male children who are not part of their family?

Your second question makes it sound like every family includes at least one adult male, but I’m assuming what you mean is, it is ok for a trans woman to breast feed a baby? I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that the substance produced by trans women’s breasts is of ‘unknown composition’. My view is that provided the ‘milk’ is considered safe by those qualified to make that judgement, and the baby is getting the nutrients it needs overall, then is it’s personal choice for the parents.

I think in the last scenario it would be pretty context and fact specific.

So of those "many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters" how many of those were natal females and how many of those are in sexual relationships with trans women? As far as I can tell though tbf I'm not in the thick of things so I may be wrong, lots of lesbians and gays for that matter, talk the talk but don't walk the walk, meaning they'll spout support but won't date trans.

That was a reference to correcting the lesbian’s understanding of her own identity as a lesbian.

thats not how it reads, but no matter.

The point still stands.

You're still suggesting potential partners should prioritise other peoples understanding of who they are, over their own physical experience of who they are.

The equivalent is me saying 'well you say you fancy Margot Robbie and I identify as being as attractive as her, so you'd be prejudiced to not fancy me'. Your position IS that stupid.

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters

Oh ok, so I guess you and your friends should respect that most women in the U.K. want penis free toilets and changing rooms. It's important to remember that, don't you think?

On the first point I have a question for you - is it ok for men to be in changing rooms with male children who are not part of their family?

Yes. What a ridiculous question.

Do you have children? It is quite standard practice to have people of the same sex in the same changing room with others of the same sex and with unrelated people of the same sex.

Are you about to again completely ignore the child in all this? Is a child not allowed to feel uncomfortable with an opposite sex person watching them in a changing room because a) a male says they are a woman and b) males who are not family use the change room with other males of all ages?

And are women not allowed to point out that males are the sex with a very high likelihood to committing sex crimes against females and not other females because of a & b as well?

Please do present your argument because we are all ears?

And I notice you handwaved away the last one? Why? Why is it ‘ I think in the last scenario it would be pretty context and fact specific. ?’

’ is it ok for a male of any age to be accommodated in a dormitory / room with females on a trip with school or girl guides?’

Surely this is yes or no?

School trip or girl guides. Not any other scenario. Not a family trip. A school trip or girl guides. That is the context.

What are the facts that would change this? Age? Why would age be relevant in these two scenarios? What else?

As far as I can tell though tbf I'm not in the thick of things so I may be wrong, lots of lesbians and gays for that matter, talk the talk but don't walk the walk, meaning they'll spout support but won't date trans.

Evidence suggests you are correct.

https://www.them.us/story/cis-trans-dating/amp

Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’

And amazingly (my bold)

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation. For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women. And 33% of the trans-inclusive bisexual/queer participants said they would only date a trans person of one gender but not the other, even though one may expect this group to be attracted to multiple genders.

Digging even deeper into the choices of cis folks willing to date trans people, an interesting pattern of discrimination against trans women in particular emerged among those who would be expected to be attracted to women: 28% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks and 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman — only a trans man. There was no similar discrimination against trans men among those expected to be attracted to men: 0% of trans-inclusive gay men and only 5% of trans-inclusive bisexual/queer/nonbinary folks excluded trans men from their dating pool.

Your second question makes it sound like every family includes at least one adult male, but I’m assuming what you mean is, it is ok for a trans woman to breast feed a baby? I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that the substance produced by trans women’s breasts is of ‘unknown composition’. My view is that provided the ‘milk’ is considered safe by those qualified to make that judgement, and the baby is getting the nutrients it needs overall, then is it’s personal choice for the parents.

No, my question was directly relevant to only families who have a male who wishes to feed an infant from their breast.

You seem to be rather keen to try to point at something that is not relevant to my question - that is building a straw man. You can do that, but we will keep pointing out it is irrelevant to the question which has no relevance to another family situation.

I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that the substance produced by trans women’s breasts is of ‘unknown composition’.

And it has been explained before. Yes, it is ‘unknown’! It may contain a whole group of other chemicals from a male body either naturally produced or artificially introduced (some to even produce that substance in the first place).

And no male has any ability for that substance to be changed by their body to suit the infant. This has been explained. This is why if an infant is being ‘joint fed’ by breast, it will be receiving a less nutritious meal. Because with breastfeeding every ml counts.

Hence why feeding the infant from the breast should never be centred around an adult male wishes.

Males in male changing rooms: I agree that of course a male could be a risk to other males, however, a major deterrent is the presence of men! Imagine what would happen if a father noticed a man starring inappropriately at his son? Do gay men walk around male changing rooms with a visible erection? Of course not! It's the physical and social power imbalance which is a problem when male bodied people enter a female space.

Surprisingly, among the 127 participants open to dating a trans person, almost half selected a trans person of a gender incongruent with their stated sexual orientation

The only suprise there is that half (said they) would select a trans person of a sex incongruent with their stated sexual orientation.

aseriesofstillimages

It’s important to remember there will have been many more lesbians at Pride who did not agree with the actions of the protesters (at least, if it was anything like london pride, which I attended).

So you don't know how "many more lesbians" were at the Welsh pride march and unless you asked them all (you didn't because you weren't there) how can you possibly know how many agreed with whichever group.

Remember that being quite does not equal agreement, especially when the opposing voices are louder and more aggressive.