Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

There could be a 'wtf' category.

interesting ethical questions.

OP appears to have a unique and persistent passion for abstract discussions of edge cases that could potentially be leveraged to chip away at sexual boundaries.

(also a “philosophical discussion” about incest on the second date! 🚩🚩🚩)

Surely this thread has got to turn its metaphorical toes up at some point very soon? I've dipped in and out as it has developed, been impressed by the cogent and methodical dissection of op's goady premise and nonsensensical 'gotchas' laid out by a lot of extremely patient women, lesbian and otherwise (mostly the former), and been staggered by the obviousness of op's refusal to address any of the points put to her. Only here to say thanks to the women who destroyed op's specious strawmen over and over again (was going to list, but really too many to name!) only to be ignored and met with more asinine handmaidery. I've had enough of op's narcissistic intellectual masturbation, I'm off.

The answer is very simple

Lesbians are attracted to adult human females

A individual cannot be lesbian if they are attracted to someone who is not an adult human female

Yet here we were discussing sexual attraction between adults - the subject of the whole thread - and talking about lesbians who are repulsed by male bodies in terms of (lack of) sexual attraction and you muddied the waters, saying lesbians with sons aren’t repulsed by their sons’ male bodies, as if that had any relevance.

You introduced the feelings of mothers about their children’s bodies in the context of a discussion that was solely about sexual attraction, or lack thereof, between adults.

And then when the weirdness and inappropriateness of that comment was pointed out, you introduced the “hilarious” topic of incest - without initially any further clarification, so still in the context of parents’ feelings about their children’s bodies.

And then you say oh but I was only talking about adult siblings who weren’t brought up together. Why? Why did you make that leap? What in the current conversation made you think of incest?

Do you think any of this makes you look like someone with reasonable, rational arguments?

No.

And your refusal to accept that lesbians who are clear that their sexual orientation precludes all biological males, no matter how those males identify, are fully entitled to that orientation and to have a clear, unambiguous name for themselves, is equally unreasonable and irrational.

You really are making yourself look like a dreadful, irrational bigot.

Yes.... The 'edginess' test and you are very right... red flag territory.

Sibling fuck buddies now.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to say this on mumsnet but I really find it hard to believe the OP is a woman. All of it reads like a man.

Franca

It is has been said before. On other threads.

Very disturbing.

Who the hell brings up children's bodies when talking about sexual attraction to one sex or the other?

There's more red flags flying round this poster than at a Red Army Parade.

Why bring up incest on this thread OP? It's not pertinent. For your entertainment? Gratification?

I'm heterosexual. I love the shape, scent, feel and texture of male bodies. I would have no sexual interest in a TM.

It's very clear to me that lesbians love the shape, scent, feel and texture of female bodies. It's not complicated, FFS. Of course TW aren't going appeal to lesbians.

I feel great sympathy for lesbians hassled by unwelcome approaches from TW. I'd find it very annoying.

Am I right in thinking that most transsexuals who have genital surgery are sexually attracted to men? Whereas the TW who retain their facial hair and dicks are the ones who tend to be attracted to women? This far larger group are the ones likely to identify as lesbians. No wonder lesbians get pissed off.

Franca123 I think we're on the same page, after the incest comment I was reminded of that 'man amuses himself by playing devils advocate' meme that was doing the rounds a while back.

Those scenarios in Game of Thrones were not meant to be real or set as life goals.

Talking about your son or siblings in a sexual context makes me want to vomit. How it just gets thrown in there all casual. I've had Jimmy Saville in my head all day today after checking this thread.

I read the OP as female, but having never grown out of that stage where young women are desperate to prove they're cool and nothing like their mums. Those boring mums who just aren't willing to put in the intellectual effort to identify when incest might be benign.

I wonder what other ways OP has morally flexible attitudes towards families and children, other than incest:

Such as some of the threads over past six months:

-is it ok for males to be in a changing room with females of all ages that are not their family. Does it matter if they have an erection or not?

• is it ok to centre the adult male of the family to support them to feed an infant a substance of an unknown composition from their breasts?

-is it ok for a male of any age to be accommodated in a dormitory / room with females on a trip with school or girl guides?

Not surprised to see that OP has not managed to answer some of my suggestions:

Why isn't she asking all the straight women on Mumsnet to get the opinions of their husbands about the idea of running their fingers down the stomachs of a TW and running up against something solid in the knicker elastic?

Is that turning any stomachs yet?

So straight men are allowed to be repulsed by male bodies - because the OP accepts their sexual orientation is exclusively towards women - but lesbians are not allowed because it is 'absolutist.'

Or just painful for TW to have their sad illusions demolished.

The OP's delusions are clear in the post - that a lesbian might talk to a TW in a social setting and not KNOW immediately who it was.
That the lesbian has no right to reject the TW - most likely at a distance of 100 metres.

I've been in large settings of lesbians over the years, big groups who've dined out on their repulsive early almost mandatory experiences with men. It's something like a rite of passage. We mostly have to pass through the Dead Marshes - those swamps near Mordor - to get to the delights of women.

In these circles we are always jealous of the Gold Stars - remember in the L Word, Shane and Carmen were Gold star - alphas? Just got a lucky pass over the Dead Marshes and started out with women....

And years later along come 'Cis-gendered' lesbians to tell us we've been deluded all these years. That we don't know ourselves well enough to understand our own sexual orientation?

When I told my straight male flatmate about our jealousy of the Gold Star lesbians, he said 'Ouch'! Because he didn't like to hear the truth of the way we feel.

I told him that 1 minute with a woman was worth more to me than 10,000 years with any man.

Finally I told him to imagine kissing a bristly chin, and added a bit more gruesome detail - and when he was begging me to stop, I told him that was the way I feel - I feel about dating men the same way he feels - it's our shared sexual orientation.

Then he became a 'Lesbro' - a cool old fashioned term for a straight man who completely gets Lesbians and can hang out with us - the male version of the kind of woman who used to hang around gay men and be comfortable with that. He gave me dating advice; picked up the pieces after disasters and helped me get back out there. I could return the favour. Because we both love and desire women.

That camaraderie of loving women.

He got it.

But the OP just never, ever will.

Or better yet, has the OP posed a similar question on a site of mainly men, in relation to straight men and TW, gay men and TM?

Or better yet, has the OP posed a similar question on a site of mainly men, in relation to straight men and TW, gay men and TM?

Well we all know the answer to that question

For this parallel experiment, I suggest the Just Gassing subtopic on pistonheads

I don’t hang around on any sites if that nature, and part of the reason I posed the question here is because it is here that I’ve seen people arguing that a lesbian can’t be attracted to trans women (and that a trans woman can’t be a lesbian).

But as mentioned previously, I did discuss in the pub with a gay male colleague whether he was attracted to trans men - it’s not that I’m only interested in how this impacts on lesbians, it’s just having a forum of people who care sufficiently about the question to have a debate about it.

My mum is wonderful, in many ways I’d like to be more like her. We’ve talked about trans issues too, she’s pretty open minded despite having grown up in very different times.

I don’t think there’s any way I could convince you I’m a woman, is there?

Fortunately my gf did not heed the 🚩🚩, and I have managed not to do anything untoward to her in the years since then.

I can’t actually remember now why it seemed like a good idea. I think this thread is sending me over the edge slightly.