Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Should we assume that the OP supports males in all three of these issues then?

😂

OP
You've confused description with prescription, attraction with sex and now assessment with stereotyping.
I'm sure explaining this new confusion will be another 1000 post display of not listening.

I have better things to talk about with my therapist thanks.

I can only imagine.

I thought GC feminists believed sex is just biology, and everything else (other than offending rates) is just stereotypes?

There's this little thing called socialisation and it's part of the whole sexist stereotypes and expectations thing, we used to call "gender" back when it made any sense and hadn't been pomoed out of all recognition.

Thank you, I think this might be the first post on this whole thread agreeing with me.

Kind of like a microcosm of society, really.

I have better things to talk about with my therapist thanks.

Why am I not surprised you have a therapist!! 😂

plenty of trans people seem to like the word ‘transbian’ - I think it’s a great example of how language can evolve rather than be hijacked or colonised into meaninglessness.

If a male transitioner who is attracted to women and other male transitioners can have a new word, then surely it makes sense to make an accompanying word that accurately indicates the complementary opposite (and leaves lesbian for female people who are exclusively homosexual)?

I’m not fond of ‘cis’ (I am a gender apostate with no gender identity of my own) but I presume the women who like women and transwomen are happy to self describe as ‘cis’ so ‘cisbian’ could work (whilst also signalling to actual lesbians that the cisbian match on their dating app is a bisexual believer in gender identity, under old style definitions)?

why make old words less useful when you can create new, additional words that help everyone to communicate more accurately?

I don't believe a transwomen can be a lesbian. To accept that opens the door to penis people being included in lesbian only spaces such as clubs, forums and dating apps.

If a transwomen pretends to be a lesbian in those forums then they are attempting to coerce and deceive lesbians into sex.

Surely accept and be proud of who you are and if you are a female attracted transwomen then you may be better either approaching women who are bi, pan or hetro, the ones that are actually interested in sex with males.

Leave lesbians to enjoy lesbians for heavens sake.

In you friends example the woman can consider herself what ever sexuality she wants. But others will not consider her in a lesbian relationship. They will consider her bi, pan or hetro. A woman having consensual sex with a transwoman isn't having lesbian sex.

Lesbians need a word that means female attracted solely to other females and the word must remain meaning only that.

@TheClogLady excellent point, and English is brilliant for coining new words.

I have 2 friends who are lesbians happily dating transwomen, they're all just getting on enjoying their lives, thankfully their lesbian social group is not hounding them about ID, I'm sure they could do without it

You don't. You have two friends who are women dating transwomen (ie males). They aren't lesbians. They can call themselves lesbians, they can hang out with their lesbian social groups, but once theyre dating dick, they aren't lesbians. They know it, we know it, you know it. You just pretend otherwise

aseriesofstillimages

I’m more just baffled. You seem to have such ingrained, inflexible beliefs about what women are like and what men are like you can’t conceive of anyone not fitting your preconceptions.

Says someone who is basing their beliefs on gender stereotypes. Your sex is what you are what you are like is up to you and shouldn't be based on stereotypes, basing what someone should be like on stereotypes is down to gender ideology

I thought GC feminists believed sex is just biology,

Congratulations you are starting to get it. Although you could drop the the word "just" from the sentence.

and everything else (other than offending rates) is just stereotypes?

And this is were you go wrong again, you should be able to do what you like, play with what you like and have sex with who you like (consent etc.) without being a stereotype.

The vast majority of TRAs that I have seen are all stereotypes. The trans-people that I know just want to get on with their lives.

Yup. Deluded and problematic to other women too. Especially young lesbians who are now being told they must accept men who have had surgery to remove their penises.

It's abusive beyond belief.
And yet OP thinks they can keep saying the same stupid things over and over and over and over and over.

And then go crying to their therapist that the women here are being mean to them and don't agree with them.

Disgusting.

Because this whole movement cannibalises and colonises everything to do with women.
It's the ultimate dick move.
And the people who push it are in service to misogyny.

If those friends called themselves ‘cisbians’ and their partners ‘transbians’ a lot of this tension would erode.
like, I don’t think it should be necessary as it should be completely acceptable to just be a bisexual woman who used to date other female people but who now has a male-who-transitioned partner but I have sympathy for those who would prefer a snappy term to describe this scenario and representation (and descriptive language) IS important so new words seem like the best way forward… especially in a world of dating apps where ticking boxes is a thing and if you only like women and transitioned-male-born-people rather than women and men more broadly a ‘bisexual’ tick box probably isn’t enough.

More words would mean some social groups could limit their membership to lesbian only and others could be open to lesbians, transbians and cisbians and that way everyone would know what to expect and whether they will be welcome.

it would also maximise the chances of getting a good match on a dating site and transbians need not worry about being rejected by lesbians as the women who want to be with transbians would be using the cisbian descriptor.

the new word ‘cisbian’ is properly in line with gender identity beliefs (as it is complimentary to ‘transbian’ and is derived from ‘transgender’ and ‘cisgender’) but the old fashioned cunty lesbians who don’t have gender identities will not need to have it applied to them against their will because it won’t mean ‘female homosexual’ but will instead mean something like ‘female homogenderal’.

it will also help in female to female dating etiquette because content-to-be-described-as -cisgender females can weed the naughty tervern lesbians out of their dating pool at a single glance.

problem solved - OPs scenario is a cisbian/transbian relationship.

now… any ideas on a name for bisexual men who only like male-men and female-born-transitioners (and not standard female-women?) not that it’s OUR job to do the menfolk’s work for them but it is interesting to talk about language (or at least it’s interesting when the new language proposed doesn’t seek to eradicate actual female people and their rights in law).

Tragay and cisgay kinda works?

(and leaves plain ol ‘gay’ for the plain ol’ homosexuals!)

I agree it would be helpful if they would use different words (but not use "lesbian" as an umbrella term though). As I said, "homogenderal" could be a useful word.

Well yes, that’s the sticking point isn’t it? It’s always driven by misogyny and the associated colonisation and occupation of women’s words, spaces & rights.

Still, we’ll just have to keep on being rational and talking to the majority.

Transbian/Cisbian is like 3rd spaces for toileting and changing, those who believe in an internal gender essence can use third spaces (including the gender believers who aren’t trans themselves) and the majority can carry on as before, using F/M as the division. What helps absolutely no one (including trans people) is collapsing all the currently perfectly serviceable categories/terms/laws just because a few people don’t like how those categories are described.

that’s why superstraight was actually a really nice (a kind!) idea - transitioned-males need not fear dating other males as long as other males have clear terms to define their own orientation.
The superstraight dude even offered to budge up himself and create a new category, whereas I would suggest it’s going to be easier to implement if we left ‘straight’ in it’s old, widely accepted definition and introduced ‘transstraight’ and ‘cisstraight’ for the people who are usually heterosexual but willing to have homosexual relationships in limited circumstances (based on external presentation/aesthetics of the factually opposite sex partner).

if the tumblr kids can make up infinite xenogenders and associated pronouns (that have no utility in a material world) I reckon us oldies can cope with a few extra portmanteau type categories that make it easier for everyone to communicate exactly what they mean (and thus resist the hostile takeover of women-words).

I’ve always admired the practicality of the terms ‘homoflexible’ and ‘heteroflexible’ that seem to only really be used when one person in a preexisting relationship transitions* as the new terms both centre the reality of the subject’s inborn sexual orientation whilst acknowledging that the other partner in the relationship has made changes (even if only in outer presentation or to the name on the gas bill, seeing as changing sex isn’t actually a thing).

*not that anyone should be expected to stay and certainly the evidence suggests transwidows should flee before the transition related credit card debts accrue.

I agree, lesbian can’t be an umbrella term. It’s a very specific descriptor of a female who is ONLY open to relationships with other females. I’ll leave it up to the women with a vested interest to decide if ‘Sapphic’ could be useful (as it currently covers bisexual women, it could certainly include cisbian women, who are bisexual in old terms).

There is no need for an umbrella term really, there hasn’t been an agreeable one thus far, hence all the letters (and the admittance of defeat by adding a ‘+’ for any future letters that someone might come up with!)

Pansexual and Queer were the agreed upon terms. I was there in the Lesbian community when it was starting around 2007(?) and felt they would be useful for those attracted by gender, pansexuals, some bisexuals, those who delighted in subverting norms aka Queer theory...
The Op with the mention of incest gives a good example of someone keen to adhere to Queer theory's desire to subvert societal and definitional norms.

I'm a normal boring woman who indeed thinks societal norms exist for a good reason and I just happen to be same sex attracted (and I like it that way!) , which is why I left the noxious LBTQ+

The Op with the mention of incest gives a good example of someone keen to adhere to Queer theory's desire to subvert societal and definitional norms.

This.

@aseriesofstillimages
"I’m more just baffled. You seem to have such ingrained, inflexible beliefs about what women are like and what men are like you can’t conceive of anyone not fitting preconceptions."

What preconceptions would those be exactly? Please list them.
Is number one on your list that lesbians (women who are sexually attracted to other women) should now be attracted to men who take hormones and who have their penises cut off?

'Jellyfish is known for a delicate, slightly salty, flavour that means it’s eaten more as a textural experience. Its slimy, slightly chewy consistency means that Chinese and Japanese gourmands often eat it raw or sliced up as a salad ingredient. “I once had a Michelin-starred chef prepare a jellyfish tasting, and one fish expert said that it was like the best oyster he’d ever tasted,'

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/sep/25/are-you-ready-for-that-jelly-why-its-time-to-start-eating-jellyfish

I would.

Oh my word. Completely the wrong thread. Sorry for dropping jellyfish. 😳

I'm categorically not ready for that jelly!

Me neither Eresh, and you could put oysters in that category too, repulsive looking things, how someone first looked at them and thought wow, that looks appetising beats me.