Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Still no answer to my question, OP?

so no, I hadn't misrepresented you at all

you are a homophobe

a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman

Why? A straight man's sexual orientation is to the opposite sex a transwoman is the same sex as him therefore why would he be attracted to a TW? It's got fuck all to do with societal prejudices.

Likewise, Franca123.

"Are there 'large numbers of creepy men who are fixated on having sex with lesbians'? I don't think I agreed to that." I don't know how you managed to miss this, op; all you have to do for proof of this is to register on any (nominally) women-only dating site; conservatively half of the 'women' presented for your delectation fit that description perfectly. In fact, 'creepy' is usually a serious understatement..

But it did happen. you can look on google and find may reports of it.
And even if it did happen at a later time (assuming that we are on about the workshops) how can you even think that it is right for an LGBT charity to run groups that teaches men how to coerce lesbians into PIV sex.

Or the fact Stonewall welcomed them with open arms and defended them and their workshop? Seriously?

And threw a hissy fit when Allison Bailey called it out.

And this is the thing, Everybody must not only except them but do as they are told to validate them, whilst at the same time they don't have to accept that others do not feel the same way and are therefore bigots and phobes.

If they truly want acceptance then they need to accept that other people's feelings and requirements are as valid as theirs.

I get that 'queer' people don't like boundaries but why are they so keen to break down other people's boundaries

I found this a good introduction to queer theory as a political agenda:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unpacking-Queer-Politics-Feminist-Perspective/dp/0745628389

Yes, FrippEnos (love the name, btw!). I'd love to get hold of a transcript of that job interview. "So Miss Page, Stonewall would like you to tell us more about how to overcome lesbian resistance to penis in vagina sex? Not Nancy, of course, she's happily married. Just all those other lesbians who seem to be operating under the delusion that they're actually allowed to set their own sexual boundaries.."

a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman

LOL. Tell that to most straight men, go on.

I don’t know who these trans incels are but they must be really sad.

It's easier to bully and guilt trip women than men, particularly when they are nominally members of the same "community".

Her statement equally can be applied as, a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman.

No it can't, or at least, only in the sense of being equally barking. What gives you the idea that this is from "societal prejudice" as oppososed to a sexuality? Being straight - if you mean heterosexual and not just boring - is a sexuality. Like being gay or lesbian or bisexual are sexualities.

You still seem to maintain a bonkers idea that trans women are sexually and physically indistinguishable from women, and that women (or men) who are attracted to women would naturally find transwomen attractive too, if not for social prejudice. It's just not the case.

Whereas without societal (and even legal) pressure, most people are perfectly happy have inter-racial sex. The fact that some gay men like to pick and choose isn't really relevant.

Her statement equally can be applied as, a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman. Or, a gay man who puts ‘white/Asian only’ on his Grindr profile might want to think what has shaped his attractions.

No. One of these statements is not like the other. At all.

It is gaslighting to say they are comparable. So, it really isn't just about telling lesbians that they should be open to having their sexual boundaries lowered for the satisfaction of males. It is all sexual orientations are being redefined.

As eresh said, Tell that to most straight men, go on.

I mean really, tell that to all straight men and just see how that all goes and come back and tell us how it went. I would expect that on the whole, heterosexual males will be quite firm in saying that they are heterosexual and they will not be appreciative of being shamed into 'reshaping' their attractions to suit anyone else's needs. Nor having their sexual orientation redefined.

I am not surprised to have read this statement though, having read this thread off and on.

If you deny there are people that are solely attracted to one sex, that is simply homophobic, whether it comes from the Westboro Baptist Church or Stonewall.

You still seem to maintain a bonkers idea that trans women are sexually and physically indistinguishable from women, and that women (or men) who are attracted to women would naturally find transwomen attractive too, if not for social prejudice. It's just not the case.

OP is using the same kind of sophistry, as a gotcha, that people who claim that biological sex doesn't exist because disorders of sexual development sometimes mean that a person's sex is ambiguous, also do.

This thread is a real time demonstration of just how much damage peddling the lie that people can change sex and TWAW/TMAM is doing to the trans community, the LGB community and society as a whole.

Deluding trans people that sex change is possible, that other people believe they are the sex they want to be rather than the sex they are, attempting to force people to play along with the belief to validate and assuage the feelings of the trans person is cruel, people don't believe it, they won't believe it and the kick back against trying to force people to do so is happening as it always would. That is the totally and without question the fault of Stonewall et al and TRAs, they are 100% to blame not anyone else.

I guess I'd ask what's wrong with using a broader term such as bisexual, pansexual, or queer (apologies, I know that last term is offensive to some, but it's widely used these days) if they are attracted to both trans and non-trans individuals. Why is it necessary to use the term "lesbian" for someone willing to form romantic and sexual partnerships with female-presenting individuals of either sex? Whose identity is being validated by this usage and why is it so important? What is then implied by the use of that term for someone who wishes to date only biological women--does it not really make any difference (who you sleep with is essentially your own private decision, after all) or does it create an expectation that you are open to all female-presenting potential partners, and that you are a bad person or bad lesbian if you then draw particular boundaries? And where is the greatest harm done?

I've been trying to think of parallels. How do you define who is and isn't a Christian, for example? Can a person who claims to be Christian be told that they have no right to that label, because they support gay marriage, or because they don't give away their wealth to the poor and show compassion to immigrants? In those cases, I feel it's not up to me to tell other people how they are allowed to identify religiously--but I can have my private opinion on whether they are the kind of Christian I approve of or not.

But that's a belief system, not a biological drive. It's not my place to dictate to others how they should enact a belief system. But I'm uncomfortable with the idea that something rooted in biology can be redefined in the same way.

I see sexual orientation as a biologically-determined feature.
I see gender identity as a belief system/social construct.
It seems that many people mash the two together these days. Or many see gender identity as a biological reality, but I'm not aware of evidence for that yet.

This thread is a real time demonstration of just how much damage peddling the lie that people can change sex and TWAW/TMAM is doing to the trans community, the LGB community and society as a whole.

For one example of this, have a listen to Julie Bindel's interview with Sinead Watson. Ms Watson gives a very detailed (and quite shocking) account of the affirmative "care" she was given by the Glasgow gender identity clinic.

juliebindel.substack.com/p/close-down-sandyford-gender-clinic#details

Also. There's nothing wrong with people (gay or straight) considering whether they have some bisexual leanings. It could well be the case that most of us would be a bit bisexual given the opportunity (look at our cousins the bonobos), but centuries of homophobia/biphobia have kept that under wraps. The world might be a better place if we moved away from the "oh, no, that's GAY FEELINGS" paranoia that still exists for many heterosexuals and accepted that feeling attraction to a wide variety of people might be perfectly okay.

But that never, ever erases the fact that everyone is allowed to draw sexual boundaries. And that if someone says they only feel attraction to biological males or females, they are not required to consider trans partners if that's not what floats their boat and they don't subscribe to the TWAW/TMAM belief system, and should not be shamed for doing so.

I can't even wrap my head around the supposed logic here.

If a person is not attracted to male bodies, they aren't attracted to male bodies.

The fact that the male body in question has decided in their head they're a woman changes nothing about the situation from the potential partners point of view. Their feelings about male bodies remain exactly the same.

Id be interested in the OP's thoughts on this.

In my experience different people may be more sexually interested in certain aspects of bodies than others. There are obviously many people for whom the nature of a person’s genitalia is crucial. But as in example I mentioned above of my gay male colleague (although some people have suggested he was not being honest about his feelings), a person’s attraction can be as much or more about other aspects of the body - having or not having breasts, being more or less hairy, general build, even pitch of voice. And of course for many people the face is the most important aspect of attraction. And all of these factors vary between sexes, in some cases naturally, and also as a result of surgical or hormonal intervention.

a person’s attraction can be as much or more about other aspects of the body - having or not having breasts, being more or less hairy, general build, even pitch of voice

And nothing about that would change because someone's 'decided' they're a woman

And of course for many people the face is the most important aspect of attraction.

Or indeed this

It sounds like you just don't believe that same sex attraction is genuine. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come to based on what you've said. Otherwise how could it be reversed by some internalised decision in the other person?

I remember in 2010 feeling pretty happy. I had a big lesbian social group, fab lesbian dating apps, pretty great societal acceptance. Life was good

I really thought that girls, who discovered their sexuality as lesbian at a young age like I did, would grow up free and happy gold star lesbians, never having to go through my university attempt to be 'normal' by trying to have sex with some nice boy and sobbing desperately as at the last minute I couldn't do it; I was repulsed by his body. (he was a doll too, understanding and left my dorm room)

And now it's even worse! Young lesbian girls forcing themselves to have sex with transwomen to be kind, trying to get over their repulsion to male bodies...

All under the aegis of LGBTQ!

Well I left in 2018, I couldn't stand it. My solidarity is solely with the female sex; I stand by and support sisterhood of all women and same-sex lesbianism.