Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Yes, people can be attracted to all kinds of combinations of body parts and there are of course people attracted to trans identifying people, whether they have physically transitioned to any degree or not at all. Why does that mean a transwoman should be able to call themselves a lesbian?

What would be a good idea is for people to be able to have spaces to meet people open to their personal proclivities and not, say, put themselves on a lesbian dating app.

Op

Do you think some people are exclusively same sex attracted?

Do you think those people should be protected against discrimination?

Well, labels are clearly important to many people, and I can see why a person who has always regarded themselves as a lesbian might not stop feeling that was their identity just because they fell for a trans woman - particularly if they felt/perceived their partner to be a woman. On the other side, I mentioned a case above where a lesbian felt distressed by her partner transitioning to become a trans man, because that changed her perception of her partner and the nature of their relationship (she felt they were now in a heterosexual relationship). Surely people’s subjective feelings about the nature of their identity and their relationship must count for something, even if we don’t accept that people have free reign to label themselves however they like?

on whether sexuality is purely biology, no one knows. Some people obviously experience it that way (ie they have always felt solely attracted to one sex as long as they can remember, as if they were ‘born that way’) but other people’s sexualities change and evolve over time, and no gene or other single biological determinant of sexuality has been discovered. Some of the evidence about the effect of hormone exposure in the womb on later sexuality also suggests that the same processes can cause a person to identify as the opposite sex, but I don’t think the evidence on either count it particularly robust.

It sounds like you just don't believe that same sex attraction is genuine. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come to based on what you've said. Otherwise how could it be reversed by some internalised decision in the other person?

Op doesn't believe that a persons sex should play any part in sexual attraction whatever that sexual attraction is which is as deluded as those who think sex change is possible.

Some of the evidence about the effect of hormone exposure in the womb on later sexuality also suggests that the same processes can cause a person to identify as the opposite sex, but I don’t think the evidence on either count it particularly robust.

Oh great now the risible bollocks about 'hormone washing' in the womb ffs.

Now the teenagers are telling each other that they need to accept transdick or they are transphobic. I have seen the conversations groups of young teenaged lesbians have in front of me. I have heard this repeated now numerous times.

Teenaged lesbians are telling each other they need to accept transdick and that if they are attracted to transboys, they are not lesbians.

being more or less hairy

Ah so being attracted to women is about being attracted to "less hairy" people?

This is terrible @Helleofabore so desperately sad.
I found a queer lgbtq article against 'gold star lesbians' dating back to 2016....I think this is when it really began. Tearing down the concept of strong early same-sex sexuality + downgrading older women and separating the generations.

When I came out the older Lesbians were fantastic, giving me advice, being supportive, informing me about lesbian culture (I was clueless). I felt such closeness and gratitude to my older lesbian sisters..

3rd Wave feminism which denigrated the great women of the 2nd Wave was the start to detach us from our strong feminist roots and pride in our past foremothers. Young lesbians don't have the role models I did and they need us more than ever. They and all young women need strong older women to tell them what's going on, why it serves men and how to say 'NO!' in a loud strong proud voice.
And to stop being kind.
transwomen are not our problem; they're men's. Let men do the work and be kind to transwomen.

Women only sports, women only dating apps, women only swimmming pools, women only prisons, women only hospital wards, women only reserved places

Sporty women, feminine women, masculine women, androgynous women
we're all women! Unite Ladies and reclaim our rights!

The OP's basic message has been that it is ok for a person to reject sex with any other person in theory, but not to claim a sexual orientation that excludes any known group by a characteristic.

Basically this means a view that homosexuality is morally and ethically wrong.

And fuck off with that please.

Be attracted to whoever you want. Have fun. Have a wonderful time. That's lovely. But unless you are a biological female exclusively attracted to other biological females you are not a lesbian. However much you like the word and identity it is not yours.

I've known plenty of lesbians and gay men who started out in hetero relationships, went through the 'am I bi?' stage of realising, and then moved to wanting exclusively homosexual relationships. They know the difference. We all know the difference. This endless bloody wangling to try and force females to give up and just let male people do whatever they fuck they want at their expense is getting really old and tired now, and it was pretty grim behaviour to start with.

Be yourself. Have a lovely time. Your boundary is not to shit on other people. It's really not difficult. I think I said that around page 1. But the OP's comment here:

my views on whether individuals should be (within reason) allowed to define their own sexuality

Makes it pretty clear really. The OP does not see homosexual people or indeed other people as equally or fully human or entitled to act without the OP's reasoned decisions around defining themselves. They seem to be some kind of subclass scum. However the OP expects those subordinated others as owing unconditional acceptance and enablement for the OP and presumably whoever else the OP deigns as above them, to label and define themselves any way they want.

Double standards incidentally being a well known dynamic of abusive relationships.

This is FUBAR.

QueenHippolyta

It is desperately sad, I agree. I have had quite a number posters tell that this is not true. But I have seen it myself. This is happening.

So, when posters say no lesbians are being impacted, they often forget about this age group coming up. And fuck off anyone who tries to tell me that this is not coercive in nature. It definitely fits coercive in my definition of it. It may be coming directly from peers, but it had to be coming from somewhere for those girls to be repeating it so righteously.

I'll also repeat in small words:

No one here wishes to control how others define their sexuality. Because that would be beyond weird and suggest you'd be a lot happier living in North Korea.

The point is that if you choose to call yourself vegan while stuffing down beef steak, regardless of how much you like thinking of yourself and talking about yourself as a vegan, people are going to think you're a bit odd and may point out to you that you're being silly, kidding yourself and no, you're really not a vegan, are you? You're actually an omnivore, which is fine. But different to veganism.

If you go into a lot of convoluted bull about how vegans CAN eat meat and it's discriminatory to gatekeep veganism, they're probably going to think you really do have a problem.

If you support the political efforts to legally reframe veganism to mean meat eating, start trying to coerce vegans into eating meat, call them names for not being meat eating vegans, take over vegan groups and make them meat eating, shun, shame and exclude non meat eating vegans from veganism? People are going to get really pissed off with you and say so in increasingly blunt terms.

It's a bit daft to expect otherwise.

And when you start moving onto telling people:

Ah but this is not a steak, it's a different kind of plant. I identify as it being plant based.

It had a plant hormone wash during creation which made it not meat.

Meat is a spectrum. Without biological testing you can't prove this steak is meat.

It's literal violence to not agree with me that I am eating a plant based steak if I say so and if you misname it by calling it meat then it's a hate crime?

.... you're welcome to believe whatever you like. And so am I. And I'm not enacting beliefs that I do not hold.

This, exactly.

God I couldn't read the whole thread sorry. But are homosexual men expected to have sex with trans men and are they then still gay men?

I'm a bit flumoxxed by all this stuff, so forgive me if I have offended anyone. I know the thread relates to lesbians, but still...

In a sane world we would all simply define our own sexuality by freely choosing who we sleep with, no coercion or gaslighting ever involved.

So true!

So, OP, if "lesbian" has already opened up. Can those biological women who are absolutely sure that they only want to have sex with biological women for whatever reason (lived experience, past trauma or just simple pure preference) have another word for that by which to organise themselves, or is that not allowed?

Yes gay men are expected to have sex with trans men. Heterosexual trans men are often sexually obsessed with gay men frequenting gay bathhouses not just gay bars. There are subreddits where they discuss their fantasies.

If you haven't heard of Mr Menno,I recommend watching his very humorous gender critical videos about this. This was one of his first

Do gay men have vaginas?

Exactly!

Yes and yes. And fortunately they are, by the Equality Act, and so are straight people and bi people.

To be clear, I would be very surprised if anyone’s attraction or otherwise to another person was altered by something that person believed about themselves in their head that had no manifestation in the world (except in the sense that you might stop finding someone attractive if you found out they held views that were repulsive to you).

We already went through the vegan example, and I explained my view is that this is more analogous to some vegans eating honey, rather than someone claiming to be a vegan while eating meat. I know you disagree, and that obviously comes back to your view that there is absolutely no meaningful difference between any trans woman and a man.

there is absolutely no meaningful difference between any trans woman and a man.

Not quite. A trans women might be very different indeed from other men, even sexually, and espeically post op I would imagine so! But there is not much meaningful sexual similarity between a trans woman and a woman.

Your friend reminds me a bit of the woman who was desperate to have an "unassisted" birth. That's very dangerous, and eventually she agreed to have a midwife present. She got there by convincing herself that this was still "unassisted" - it didn't involve the things she was scared of, like doctors and medical interventions. Everyone else went along with her that having the midwife could be called "unassisted" for her sake and the baby's, but it still wasn't what "unassisted" usually means. And her baby's birth could not be added to the safety statistics for genuinely unassisted births, no matter what she thought.

"Not quite. A trans women might be very different indeed from other men, even sexually, and espeically post op I would imagine so! But there is not much meaningful sexual similarity between a trans woman and a woman."

In what way are they different sexually from men?
In what way are they different from other men who have had drastic damage done to their sexual organs?
In what way are they different from other men who may be taking hormones for prostate cancer?

In what way is there any sexual similarity with women?

And yet you seem to disagree about a lesbian saying no to a man or a transwoman and don't believe that workshops to coerce women in to sex with these people exist.