Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, when I said my partner gets annoyed when she hears people saying silly hateful things about trans people I wasn’t talking about things on here - I’m pretty sure she’s never looked at this thread, and rolls her eyes if she catches me on here. I mean things in papers, tv, Twitter, politics - things stating (or implying) that trans people are delusional, perverted, criminal, not to be trusted.

I never see this discussion the other way around.

Is anyone trying to convince gay men they should accept trans men as partners?

You are aware that believing that males can't even lesbians and thet trans people are delusional perverted criminals are to completely separate things?

Yes.

Although female people being sexually aggressive isn't so alarming or dangerous to males and male people have a whole lot more social capital in being able to say wtf, no. With TM being female, the socialisation seems to play a significant part, and there's also not the same situation of groups having been taken over and forced to be compliant or aggressively shut down. And there isn't the same history of male people feeling entitled to female bodies and becoming angry with female people feeling they have some say in this, or seeing homosexual females as some sort of ultimate conquest.

What you never see is anyone trying to convince straight people they should abandon their sexual orientation, or redefine themselves, or learn to cope with unwanted sex. You see incels talk in depth about wishing females could be forced/allocated to males for sex without the right to say no, but you never see a question about wanting to redefine heterosexual to be inclusive of all sexualities and choices. Or homosexual people wishing to use the label heterosexual and getting cross with any argument that the word has a specific meaning.

It's as teenagers in school currently say: the last thing you ever admit to is just being plain boring straight, it's social death.

As 20 pages demonstrate: there is no having any kind of rational meeting of minds with someone who identifies as this being ok.

Indeed.

Still no proper engagement @aseriesofstillimages ?

I read the BBC article you posted - may I ask if you've had the courtesy to do the same with mine?

I once had a bonkers arguememt with an 1 yo girl (who liked to wear flower print flowing dresses and makeup) who was going to call the police on me because I said she was not a gay man.

Do you think she was a gay man? and should be alowed to wax lyrical about how much homophobic oppression she faced?

18yr old

18yr old

🤭 I was wondering what kind of 1 year old knows the word “gay” but I was otherwise almost buying it. It’s more age appropriate than it is for an 18 year old anyway!

I did read that article when it originally came out. It is obviously terrible that anyone has been pressured into having sexual intimacy they didn’t want. However, there was nothing in that article to suggest it is a prevalent problem specifically on the part of trans women. One of the few complainants quoted was subsequently shown to be pretty unhinged, and has also herself been accused of sexual assault.

I agree with the comment from Nancy Kelly. She didn’t call lesbians ‘sexual racists’. Do you think a person is racist because they have never found someone of a particular race sexually attractive?

aseriesofstillimages

How do you feel about stonewall holding workshops about how transwomen men can have sex with lesbians? which is were the "sexual racists" saying came from.

Ah now we're at the bottom line.

You don't think it's acceptable for females to be homosexual and deny sex to males.

Therefore you have no respect for the term lesbian and feel entitled to treat homosexual women and their identities in this disparaging way for your own purposes.

Took twenty pages but we got there. At least you're honest about your homophobia, and your belief that it's ok to treat people badly when they aren't like you and yours.

so to sumarise your position @aseriesofstillimages .

At least 2 lesbians have joined this thread to tell you of occasions when they've felt pressured to have a relationship with a transwoman (I would say man). A number of other women who are lesbians have told you how unhappy they are with you and others trying to redefine their sexual orientation. You are uninterested and your position is unaffected by these posts.

you read an article containing this

Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested*

and your response is the article doesn't say men pressuring lesbians for sex is prevalent and you don't believe one of the women quoted.

You agree with Nancy Kelly's statement that if a lesbian writes off dating men, it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped her attractions.

You acknowledge that sex is real, that men and women have different bodies. You acknowledge that there are large numbers of creepy men who are fixated on having sex with lesbians. you are unable to explain what converts a man into a transwoman, apparently there's a fuzzy line. so we don't know when it stops being OK to notice that a person is a creepy man and we start having to think he's an actual lesbian

you are still quite at ease accusing people who look at a man and see a man of 'religious fervour', even though you are unable to explain your position.

have I misrepresented you anywhere here?

yes, this is all true. I'm just wondering if @aseriesofstillimages can admit it to herself.

Om's description of Vorbis in the Terry Pratchett book Small Gods keeps coming into my mind:

a mind like a steel ball… nothing gets in, nothing gets out… the kind of mind that would put the universe on its back, just to see what would happen.

I’m not sure if you actually read what I wrote, as this doesn’t seem to bear any resemblance to it?

Frankly @aseriesofstillimages you purport to be educated and intelligent and yet you cannot see the link between changing the definition of lesbian and what is happening to lesbians as reported in that BBC article and by lesbians on this very thread that is why I don't believe you are posting in good faith at all.

The definition of lesbian is a female homosexual, someone attracted to those of their own sex. STOP trying to dilute, blur, fuzz the edges of this definition. Stop saying mealy mouthed things such as no-one should have sex or date someone they don't want to but they should at least not write off all transwomen, they should at least consider they might be attracted to one, then what is happening to lesbians can be called out for clearly and unequivocally for exactly what it is and I shouldn't need to spell that out to you being as you are so clever.

At least 2 lesbians have joined this thread to tell you of occasions when they've felt pressured to have a relationship with a transwoman (I would say man). A number of other women who are lesbians have told you how unhappy they are with you and others trying to redefine their sexual orientation. You are uninterested and your position is unaffected by these posts.

I am not uninterested in the accounts of individuals who have been pressured into relationships. I think it should go without saying that is wrong. I don’t think that my views on whether individuals should be (within reason) allowed to define their own sexuality have any real impact on whether that happens or not. I also have heard from a much greater number of lesbians that they have not been aware of this happening - which is part of my reason for thinking it doesn’t happen much. I have occasionally (in the long distance past) been pressured into doing things I didn’t really want to do with other women. I don’t judge whole groups of people on the behaviour of a few.

You agree with Nancy Kelly's statement that if a lesbian writes off dating men, it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped her attractions.

that makes it sound more specific and targeted than it was. Her statement equally can be applied as, a straight man might wish to consider what societal prejudices may have contributed to him not being attracted to a trans woman. Or, a gay man who puts ‘white/Asian only’ on his Grindr profile might want to think what has shaped his attractions. Obviously, in the case of gay men and lesbians, it’s important to be sensitive to the history (individually or collectively) of people being told their sexuality was wrong or invalid.

You acknowledge that sex is real, that men and women have different bodies. You acknowledge that there are large numbers of creepy men who are fixated on having sex with lesbians. you are unable to explain what converts a man into a transwoman, apparently there's a fuzzy line. so we don't know when it stops being OK to notice that a person is a creepy man and we start having to think he's an actual lesbian

I mean, we all have different bodies. But yes, obviously there are a number of significant particular differences between bodies designed to produce large gametes and those designed to produce small gametes.

Are there ‘large numbers of creepy men who are fixated on having sex with lesbians’? I don’t think I agreed to that.

Also that’s rather missing the point. A person who pursues someone who they know or suspect isn’t interested in them is being creepy. Knowing whether someone is being creepy or not doesn’t depend on knowing whether they’re a woman or a man (trans or otherwise).

there was nothing in that article to suggest it is a prevalent problem

So. Here we are, several pages in, and your true colours are on full display. So we ask the perennial question; how many women are you prepared to sacrifice on the altar of this ideology? It seems quite a few for you. But you haven’t grasped it yet, have you? One - ONE - is too many for the women on this board.

You don’t get to to redefine lesbians’ sexual orientation.

That didn’t happen did it? The person who ran the workshop in question joined Stonewall at a later time.

Yep, as stated, your true colours are really on display now.

That didn’t happen did it? The person who ran the workshop in question joined Stonewall at a later time.

And you don't see anything wrong with that? Or the fact Stonewall welcomed them with open arms and defended them and their workshop? Seriously?

Indeed true colours well and truly on show now, what's the difference between that workshop and the ones run by Julien Blanc who was barred from entry in the UK?

OP, transwomen are still biologically male. Even the ones who have ‘bottom’ surgery, get cross-sex hormones, their jaws shaved down and other ‘feminisation’ procedures still have male dna, pelvises, shoulders, Adam’s apples, etc etc.

Lesbians are, by definition, attracted to female bodies, not an idea or inner feeling of ‘woman’.
Sex is something we do with bodies - you can’t leave bodies and genitals out of the sex equation. And apologies for TMI, but ‘Neo vaginas’ as they are called, don’t look or feel or taste like female parts. ‘Lady diques’ are male genitals, attached to a male body.

We are not disembodied brains in jars. Being attracted to only brown-haired women is a preference. Being attracted to adult female humans only, is not a ‘preference’. It is an orientation. Trying to force a change in this orientation to please male people and social pressures is conversion therapy.

Women are allowed to reject anyone they want to reject, for any reason they choose.

Hell, no, not just allowed! Women do have the autonomy. We can reject or accept anyone we choose.