Concept of ‘exclusively same sex attracted’

[aseriesofstillimages]

I have seen various people on this forum say that to be gay or a lesbian is to be ‘exclusively same sex attracted’, and that therefore, for example, a woman who is attracted to or in a relationship with a trans woman cannot correctly describe herself as a lesbian.

Setting aside the problems with presuming to correct another person’s understanding of their own identity, I can’t see how this absolutist approach is logically sustainable. If I am a non-trans woman who has only ever - to my knowledge - been attracted to other non-trans women, but then am attracted to and get off with a woman in a bar who I subsequently find out is trans, do I immediately stop being a lesbian? What if I don’t stop finding the trans woman attractive after learning that she’s trans? What if I never find out she was trans - is it the case that I have ceased being a lesbian, but will never know this?

that's interesting

so there is a fuzzy line. on one side of which a man joining a lesbian dating app is a common or garden creepy boundary pushing man

on the other side of that line, after he has made enough unspecified effort, he is now a transwoman, and therefore emphatically not a creepy boundary pushing man. and in fact anyone who thinks he is 'believe(s) themselves to have privileged knowledge of an absolute truth - in a manner reminiscent of religious fervour - and then foist(s) that on other people to contradict their own understanding of their sexuality', to quote you.

you do see how unreasonable that is don't you?

and how unfair it is to condemn people in those terms who have a perfectly reasonable belief: that women have the kind of body that produces eggs and can gestate babies, and that humans can't change sex.

you don't buy into 'us and them'? in what respect?

you think I 'believe themselves to have privileged knowledge of an absolute truth - in a manner reminiscent of religious fervour - and then foist that on other people to contradict their own understanding of their sexuality'

that feels pretty damn othering I can tell you. Of course you believe in us and them

and as for why I think you're having this argument for anyone other than yourself, well you don't benefit in any way from this redefining of gay women's understanding of themselves from underneath them.

but a certain class of men do.

so it may not feel like it to you, but you are working for free for other people's benefit. that probably makes you feel good, because you feel passionate about it. but you've spent much effort here trying to justify your beliefs. I'm guessing it has made you uncomfortable at times because cognitive dissonance will do that when you get too close to the source of the contradiction.

@OP You'll find that many lesbians have had sex with men, and many straight people have had homosexual experiences.

This is ok, and pretty normal.

Also many people view their sexuality one way, and then are sideswiped and fall for someone who they wouldn't have considered as part of their dating pool (probably more common that previously heterosexual people fall for someone of the same sex, but it happens the other way too).

There's a bit of bi (or pan if you like) in a lot more people than they may think. Sexually can be fluid. Again, that's fine. We have too many labels IMO and I think people should be less attached to them.

But as PP have said, words do have meanings, and a lesbian is a woman who is same sec attracted; who wants sexual and romantic relationship only with other women.

What happens when we get too attached to labels is that we can over identify with them. This links to the current use of 'identity'.

A woman who sees herself as a lesbian, and hits it off with a man in a bar, or with a trans woman, and has sex because both parties want to, then good for her (remember that casual sex is basically hedonism anyway, and fun is fun, these things happen).

Whether she is 'still a lesbian' I suppose depends what happens next.

If a straight woman gets off with a female friend and then goes back to being het, she's still straight.

Consider the 'girl crush'; the straight girl who has special feelings for another women (usually a celebrity). A couple of years ago there was a wave of straight girls on social media saying they'd 'go gay' for Ruby Rose. And who could blame them?

In short, don't be over concerned with labelling yourself. Love, fancy or shag as you will.

But the problem with a couple as you describe calling themselves a lesbian couple ripples out, and blurs boundaries for other people.

Lesbians have the right to be exclusively same sex attracted. And it's ok to not be a lesbian even if you've previously considered yourself to be so.

Brilliantly said, Artichoke.

If a straight woman gets off with a female friend and then goes back to being het, she's still straight.

This was me. In the late 90s/early 2000s, "bicurious" was where it was at. I was not really all that interested, I just wanted to be edgy and transgressive when same sex attraction was still slightly taboo. I did it with 2 safe female friends who also were straight. None of us have decided since that we are bisexual or lesbians.

I am not bisexual, I have no feelings of attraction towards my own sex.

I mean, I’m trying to give you all the benefit of the doubt, but the evidence is pointing that way

Oh look, your mask fell off. No you are not the educated and rational person in this conversation.

This. It really is that simple. TRAs tend to let the women who fawn over them do most of the dirty work. It must be tough to come around from the cognitive dissonance and realise how much you've been had, so I can kind of understand the resistance people have to examining their beliefs in any depth.

the implication of what you’re all saying is that straight women have less of a right to say no to a man than lesbians do - surely that can’t be right? We all have the right to say no - to unwanted sexual contact, attention, whatever - without giving a reason.

Er, no. As a straight woman, I have the right to say no to any male I choose (and obviously every female). As a lesbian, women should be able to turn down all males on the basis of their sexual orientation, regardless of personal identity, and that should be the end of it.

They also can turn down any female they are not interested in. But being a proud lesbian means they aren't sexually interested in men. Do you agree that lesbian and gay people should be able to be open about being attracted to only one sex? Bit homophobic otherwise.

Yep

i suspect our visitor won’t return to this thread, although I have little doubt they’ll return to the board, likely under a name change

I’m trying (generally unsuccessfully) to have some sympathy for the genderists who come here, especially those who are brave enough not to just plop and run

I work on the assumption that they have someone important to them who is applying emotional pressure to buy into the big lie, hence the feeling of almost panic whenever things get too close to the bone.

they cannot deviate for fear of losing someone too important to lose, regardless of what their rational brain is telling them. It’s the dynamic that I would guess is at play in Joanne Harris’s behaviour.

I think the panic explains the often vicious attempts to enforce orthodoxy, and the characterisation of people who don’t follow their beliefs as in some way evil or mad (see the ‘religious maniacs’ theme on this thread)

<armchair psychology ends>

Completely agree, Bernard.

Ok, @OP

If lesbian is the umbrella term.

Then for biological women who want to date biological women, can they have a term for that? Can they have a term for wanting to have groups that focus on that? Dating profiles that say that?

Because currently those women are being bullied out of that.

I’m predictable, I know, but when I see someone saying I’m not going to reappear, I can’t help myself. I’m sure I will comment on other threads in future, but I have no plans on changing my username - why would I?

That’s an interesting theory, @BernardBlacksWineIcelolly (Btw I really do like your username, I really wish Linehan hadn’t gone the way he has, as Black Books is possibly my favourite comedy series ever) - but entirely wrong in my case. I have no one very close to me who is trans or non-binary - all of the trans/nb I know I are colleagues (who I like very much, but I am not close to them). In fact, I don’t think anyone I know outside work cares about these issues as much as I do. My partner agrees with me, and gets annoyed when she sees people saying silly, hateful things about trans issues, but she would never put the time and effort into discussing it with people that I have.

I have analysed why I care so much about this. I think it stems from a

Oops, hit ‘post’ by mistake prematurely. The suspense…..

...really isn't killing me..

😄I’m sure it isn’t. Which is a good thing, as I’m not sure when I’m going to finish that thought, as I got distracted by lunch and now I need to get back to work

I'll probably regret bothering to ask and equally probably won't get an answer but what are these silly, hateful things about trans issues that are being said on here?

That TW are male and therefore cannot be described as lesbians nor should they expect to be and particularly not to force lesbians to succumb to this and insert themselves into lesbian spaces and dating apps/groups?

That lesbian is term that describes females exclusively sexually attracted to members of their own sex and that anyone who doesn't fall under that specific description isn't a lesbian?

silly, hateful things about trans issues

see, I’m not clear on what you mean by this. I’m very unclear on your views generally, other than the fact you regard me as some sort of religious maniac. Can you let me know which of the statements below you consider to be silly and/or hateful @aseriesofstillimages ?

1. women are people with the kind of body that can gestate a baby (by all that’s holy, please let’s not do the hysterectomies, infertility dance)

2. women suffer discrimination and disadvantages because they have those kinds of bodies

3. men commit 80% of violent crime and 98% of sexual violence

4. although you haven’t actually nailed down what you would consider as ‘transition’, there’s no evidence that things like taking cross sex hormones or having cosmetic surgery affects statement 3

5. men are generally considered to be more entitled to resources and opportunities than women (see the college rapists who’ve ‘ruined their future’ by getting caught for example)

6. men generally expect women to validate and facilitate them

7. statements 3, 5 and 6 make women only spaces and resources very important

8. men using a lesbian dating app are intruding on a women only resource in the style of entitled MCPs since the dawn of time

Yes, you’re indulging in silly ‘you haven’t scared me off’ posts while failing to engage with any of the arguments

it makes you look like rather a lightweight if I may say so

Pigeon chess.

what are these silly, hateful things about trans issues that are being said on here?

'no' basically.

Oh yes to number 4. There is no evidence that transitioning changes this! In fact I think there is ample evidence that it does not! Especially the story about the trans woman who coerced that poor lesbian into having unwanted sex with them by threatening to out them as transphobic!

The core of this is the belief:

to not validate a TW as female is unacceptably evil, which requires the overlooking of reality, fact, everyone else's interests and humanity and civil rights, common sense etc etc.

The 'silly hate' is that homosexual women insist on saying 'no, because you're in fact male and my orientation is not to males'.

Instead of wholly revolving themselves, their lives, their sexuality and their feelings around meeting the need of this male person to protect the male person's sense of self. In a quite disturbingly codependent, unhealthy way that sees them and their body merely as a resource for the betterment of people born male, while denying that this obviously very, very sex based binary thinking exists.

As 20 pages demonstrate: there is no having any kind of rational meeting of minds with someone who identifies as this being ok.

I think your first mistake was in your first sentence OP where you state that to be gay or lsebian is to be exclusively same sex attracted is a specific belief to this forum where I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of society understand clearly what same sex attraction means.

There is a small portion of society, religious fanatics, homophobes and the like who refuse to believe that homosexuality is a fact, but it doesn't stop it from being an actual fact.

When you're being kind and concerned please think about who you're being kind to and how that affects the reality of those who don't concern you.

Or @aseriesofstillimages, I'm sure you won't answer this, but to put my question a different way, if women who were born female and were attracted to other women who were born female chose to use "bio lesbian" to signify this for the purpose of dating, events etc (and thereby to exclude trans women from their own dating pool, whilst happily accepting that trans women were or considered themselves to be lesbians too), would you object to this?