Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

I care about women and girls feelings.

I feel like the people who post here are transphobic and are using their world view to inform the fact that the vast majority of women feel the same blanket fear and distrust of the typical trans woman than they do. I believe they allow their feminist beliefs to legitimise their transphobia and denigrate other women for feeling differently.

I feel like their world view only makes sense if one views trans women as violent, heterosexual, brutish sex predators whose sole interest in life is accessing women to abuse. Do I think this has happened? Yes of course, that is evident. Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?

I am sick and tired of legitimate concerns in niche areas of life being delegitimised by sickening transphobia. I'm sick and tired of being insulted, called a naive snowflake (and far worse on past threads) for disagreeing with the majority and not being willing to use examples of criminal predators to represent the trans community.

I'm sick and tired of it being okay to bleat on at people like me for "not caring" about women and girls (when most posters are women) while in the same breath absolutely slating, ridiculing and shaming other people just for existing.

Again.

What about the fact that that they JUST DON'T WANT MEN PRESENT?

Nothing to do with criminal behaviour/perversion etc.

JUST the fact that women are entitled to single sex spaces for their privacy and dignity?

It's got nothing to do with transphobia amd everything to so with men.

Isn't it. And we are supposed to shut up and BEEEEE KIIIIIIIIIIIND. Fuck off.

Poor you, your life sounds tough. As often stated on this board - please report any transphobia to MNHQ, they're very good at removing any trace.

Meanwhile, OP, do read the latest EHRC guidance and perhaps take the people saying this is the law right now with a pinch of salt.

It is not. The EA 2010 has been deliberately misinterpreted by Stonewall and coattail-riders. There is no reason why a male should make elderly ladies uncomfortable in their own changing rooms.

Of course it's OK when there's no opposition - an easier chat can be had.

But it is so, so much better when opposition does show up. They're giving us the debate that Stonewall said we weren't allowed. And sunlight. And it's ok, isn't it? I've not rtwt but what I've dipped into seems respectful enough on both sides?

I'm sorry your reaction to people disagreeing with you is so extreme. Again, I'd venture to suggest that is a you problem

You may be about to write a post addressing the Katie Dolowski question, in which case apologies for jumping the gun. however

You may not be able to accept this, but your world view means that the sexual assault suffered by that 10 year old girl is acceptable, because ensuring dignity for transwomen by allowing them to use women's toilets is more important than any thing else.

I know it was only one little girl. my contention is that it should be no little girls

he grabbed her by the face and pushed her into a cubical, then ordered her to remove her trousers. her father was waiting for her outside, because men don't go in the ladies toilets do they?

@Dreamwhisper "Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?"

Such prejudice as you call it has been employed forever, that's why we have male and female facilities - changing rooms, prisons, domestic abuse shelters....... men pose a risk to women, so women have separate spaces.

Transwomen are men, that is their biology and their socialisation. They may not be happy about being men but that doesn't actually change the facts.

Men as a class pose a higher risk to women then women do. That is supported by decades of crime statistics.

You may be happy to accept a higher level of risk for yourself but I'm not happy to accept that higher risk for myself or for my daughter.

Amen to that!

the demographic I'm talking about at this point is sex. what sex is a transwoman?

I feel like their world view only makes sense if one views trans women as violent, heterosexual, brutish sex predators whose sole interest in life is accessing women to abuse. Do I think this has happened? Yes of course, that is evident. Do I believe that should be the basis on which we judge and treat trans women? Of course not - when is it ever okay to employ such prejudice?

But aren't TW viewing men the same way by not wanting to share changing rooms with them despite having the exact same genitalia?! If they don't want to be around penises because of what they represent, why do they think other women want to be around their penis???? Where's their empathy for how women may feel around them?

@Whattheheckinhell Could you please expand on who exactly belongs in 'trans' demographic?

Anyone saying they identify as trans?

Is there any independent verification to what they state, 'cos you know, that's how 'demographic' is normally defined - objectively, not subjectively?

I mean, not that finding women's concerns hilarious is especially respectful.

But in general, I think MN shows that people can disagree with each other without something awful happening.

@Dreamwhisper

Personally, I don't think TW are all predators, but as you say there are some pretty bad apples out there. The point is just that studies have shown that TW as a population (not as individuals) have a similar offending pattern to males and as you acknowledge real world examples show that women and girls HAVE been harmed by predatory TW, or men posing as TW.

Given that studies have shown that sexual assaults generally occur in mixed sex spaces, opening up single sex spaces is likely to make women and girls less safe overall (more opportunities for those bad apples to exercise bad behaviour around women and girls). Most of the time this won't have a consequence, but sometimes it will. So, if there are 20 more sexual assaults a year as a result of opening up single sex spaces to TW, is that acceptable to you? Is that a fair price to pay? This isn't transphobia, it's a fair question about the balancing of rights. If you choose to accept that assaults have happened and that they tend to happen in mixed sex facilities (because this is where male predators can access female victims), this is just the corollary of what you are saying.

What is the fair price for women and girls to pay? Does it matter that more assaults, more voyeurism etc will happen if it is still rare overall?

I mean, is it really extreme? I don't feel it's not in keeping with a large number of the other posts. I'm not insulting anyone. But all the things I've listed have happened.

Ps @Dreamwhisper

I would very happily campaign for more third spaces for trans women. As would many on here. There is a compromise position.

So what is a transwoman and what is this damascian process they go through that stops them offending at the same rate as men? How can we tell it is a transwoman and not a man pretending to be a transwoman? Why will you NEVER answer these questions?
One thing is certain, predatory men will abuse any opportunity. If it isn't too much effort to become a priest or hide in hollow walls they sure as hell will say 'i am a woman' to get to victims. Naive is a kind word to describe you.
Ps. And the offending rates are just the same for tw and men. No great surprise their.
Pps. Pointing this out is NOT transphobic.
Ppps. Try giving a shit about women and girls

I'm just not prejudice against trans women, I don't believe the vast, vast majority of people who identify as trans women or trans men do so for any other reason that because of how they feel about their own self and identity.

Neither do I. However, I don't give a shiny shit about how they feel regarding their own self and identity (whatever the fuck that means). If you were born male, you're male: use the male facilities. If you were born female, you're female: use the female facilities.

Jesus. I am not prioritising males feelings AT ALL. I'm just not a narrow minded individual and can comprehend the fight that transpeople fight alongside fighting for women's rights. Its not a race to the bottom.

@Whattheheckinhell So unless you agree that TWAW and are entitled to be in every space women are you're narrow minded?

What is their fight out of interest? What rights elude trans people that everyone else has?

This x a million!

People do get heated on both sides. you have accused people with what I would consider to be perfectly reasonable views of transphobia. I hope that I haven't insulted you, that has certainly not been my intention.

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts about the practical implications of your views.

If you don't want to talk about Katie Dolotowski (and I'll grant you it is upsetting), let's talk about the four women prisoners who were sexually assaulted by a transwoman while they were locked up with him

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html

Are their sexual assaults a reasonable price to pay for that transwoman's dignity - being incarcerated with women?

And if you feel soooo threatened and marginalised in that space, campaign for a further safe one. Or campaign for men to understand your position.

It's like what I saw on a another thread -

Trans - Can I sit down?
Women - Yeah sure, plenty of room at the table
Trans - No I want your seat.

D*reamwhisper

'I feel like [transphobic posters] world view only makes sense if one views trans women as violent, heterosexual, brutish sex predators whose sole interest in life is accessing women to abuse.'
*
Just to be clear - we view transwomen as men.