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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)

761 replies

Justme56 · 04/08/2022 08:13

Sorry I can't share the article, but liked this:

What is the funniest thing that has happened in your job?

As a result of my work in this area, apparently becoming an object of admiration on Mumsnet [the Internet parents' forum] - improbable in many ways.

😁

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
BlessedKali · 06/08/2022 23:58

Oh i do ever so hope that bunbury will bake everyone delicious treats to celebrate!

Hopefully of the no bite variety.

Something that just melts in your mouth into non-existance.

Tell you what though... I'd bake Ben a big fat sexy chocolate cake

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:01

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:57

Since you didn't read my post, @Hearach15, here's the short version of what Allison Bailey's case established as protected beliefs about Stonewall:

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Not a good look for an organisation that was founded to fight for LGB rights, surely?

Stonewall won the case 😍

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:08

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Getting a cake with that iced on it would be a better use of £££ than contributing to Ms Bailley's next legal case.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/08/2022 00:10

BlessedKali · 07/08/2022 00:05

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Maybe I could get this iced on my big sexy chocolate cake

Like King Pyrrhus, I doubt they want another win like that.

It'd have to be a big cake.

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:39

I’m so glad I donated to Allison’s case. I’m also planting seeds for Shahrar Ali, Sarah’s legal challenge. Julie Bindel de-platformed by Nottingham council. And others I’m sure other vipers can name

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:40

Well done Ben , and Allison

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:55

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:40

Well done Ben , and Allison

Well done, Stonewall!

TheBiologyStupid · 07/08/2022 01:18

Sunfriedegg · 07/08/2022 00:39

I’m so glad I donated to Allison’s case. I’m also planting seeds for Shahrar Ali, Sarah’s legal challenge. Julie Bindel de-platformed by Nottingham council. And others I’m sure other vipers can name

Lisa Keogh, for one. www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4475571-Lisa-Keogh-being-assisted-by-Joanna-Cherry

Furries · 07/08/2022 03:50

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:21

"Ben's exceptional performance" - he lost the case.

Stonewall had a much better lawyer.

snort

Datun · 07/08/2022 05:44

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Utterly damning.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 06:51

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:41

"Some victory for Stonewall!" Yes - they won, Allison Bailey lost 😍

You clearly didn’t read this hearache and are up to your normal tricks of making what you think are pithy comebacks that progress your argument.

Anyone reading this judgement, would not be celebrating. These paragraphs will take Stonewall a very long time to recover from as PR objective.

Do you actually understand that Stonewall requires corporate funding for their existence?

Only a person who can only have a superficial view of business practices and government processes as you have displayed on numerous threads would take to celebrating. Or someone who thinks they can continue to get away with dishonesty.

I know you think you are on the wind up here tonight but all you continue to do is show how little you understand. And here your celebrating Stonewall is laughable.

If anyone in the Stonewall team is celebrating, it is because the Judge decided that the responsibility rested solely on GCC so Stonewall was released of responsibility.

This means

a) GCC’s senior management didn’t really take much Stonewall advised as useful or usable. And showed they, a renowned chambers with many LGB barristers and employees, only really paid lip service to Sonewall’s ‘evangelical’ teachings.

How are you going to spin that particular finding as a success for Stonewall? A chamber with many prominent LGB members don’t take the advice given seriously by Stonewall …

Hardly an endorsement.

b) this also signals that justice in this case required the GCC to take full responsibility for their actions. And that this judge was not going to allow GCC to move its responsibility to Stonewall.

Think about it. What precedent would that set? A chamber of barristers diverting responsibility for discrimination to an outside source? Would ANY advisory organisation exist within 2 years?

Do you actually understand this?

And how hard is it going to be to grow funding to cover the losses recently with those paragraphs?

These paragraphs, along with celebrating the transitioning of 2 year olds, Nancy Kelley’s statements (which you have persisted in not acknowledging)….

Only a fool would think this is truly a win. I suspect Stonewall posted intimating that it was a ‘win’ out of bravado. And influencers are trying bolster Stonewall’s reputation as their futures are entwined. But fools dance across the internet celebrating that avoidance of being forced to be responsible for their actions like this was a ‘win’.

If past form stays true, you, hearache, will either ignore this post, or try a distractive tactic, or write a short comeback that sounds clever in your head but not to anyone who has any depth of knowledge reading it.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 06:58

Datun · 07/08/2022 05:44

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Utterly damning.

Yep.

And these paragraphs are rippling out. They take time, but they are building momentum across the business pages, and publications, and into advisory reports.

Very foolish to think those paragraphs don’t have the power to hasten the withdrawal of support that started recently.

And that those paragraphs won’t be useful in future legal cases. I mean, how long did it take for paragraphs of Keira’s case and Maya’s appeal to start to effect change in the preceding cases.

These paragraphs are going to follow and hinder Stonewall for a very long time.

It is hilarious to see fools who cannot see the repercussions, declaring it a win!

But yes… everyone is happy right!

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 07:01

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 00:08

Getting a cake with that iced on it would be a better use of £££ than contributing to Ms Bailley's next legal case.

Is this another male telling women where we should be spending our money? On a feminist board?

How very novel!

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 07:21

Because my phone wouldn’t quote biology’s post.

Here again is what the judgement found was protected belief. Ie. What people are now allowed to say in their workplace about Stonewall without fear of reprisal:

Some victory for Stonewall! The Tribunal said in paragraph 293 of its judgement: “We concluded that all the claimant’s pleaded beliefs, not just the belief that woman is sex not gender, are protected”. Those protected beliefs, as set out in paragraph 279, are:

279. The beliefs for which Equality Act protection is claimed are set out in paragraph 8 of the further revised amended particulars of claim:

“She believed (and continues to believe) that the first respondent’s [Stonewall’s] campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic. In particular, the claimant believed and believes that:

(a) Sex is real and observable. Gender (as proselytised by the First Respondent) is a subjective identity: immeasurable, unobservable and with no objective basis.

(b) At the root of the First Respondent’s espousal of gender theory is the slogan that “Trans Women Are Women”. This is advanced literally, meaning that a person born as a man who identifies as a woman literally becomes a woman for all purposes and in all circumstances purely and exclusively on the basis of their chosen identity. To all intents and purposes, the First Respondent has reclassified “sex” with “gender identity”.

(c) The tone of the First Respondent’s campaigning on this subject has been binary, absolutist and evangelical. It may be summarised as “You are with us, or you are a bigot.” Discussions on the subject have become extremely vitriolic, largely as a result of the First Respondent’s absolutist tone, replicated by other organisations with which the First Respondent works closely. This has resulted in threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence) becoming commonplace. The First Respondent has been complicit in these threats being made.

(d) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons, including that it denies women the ability to have female only spaces, for example in prisons, changing rooms, medical settings, rape and domestic violence refuges and in sport.

(e) Gender theory as proselytised by the First Respondent is severely detrimental to lesbians. In reclassifying “sex” with “gend”, the First Respondent has reclassified homosexuality from “same sex attraction” to “same gender attraction”. The result of this is that heterosexual men who identify as trans women and are sexually attracted to women are to be treated as lesbians. There is therefore an encouragement by followers of gender theory (including the First Respondent) on lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people. To reject this encouragement is to be labelled as bigoted. This is inherently homophobic because it denies the reality and legitimacy of same sex attraction and invites opprobrium and threatening behaviour upon people who recognise that reality and legitimacy.

(f) It is particularly damaging to lesbians that the First Respondent has taken this position. The First Respondent had been the foremost gay and lesbian rights campaigning organisation in the UK and one of the world’s leading such organisations. The adoption of gender theory by the First Respondent therefore left those gay, lesbian and bisexual people who did not ascribe to gender theory without the representation that the First Respondent had previously provided, and left those people labelled as bigots by their primary representative organisation

Good luck Stonewall. Shaming and advising to terminate people for saying these things in a workplace will no longer work.

How about instead, Stonewall picks up its professionalism, moves away from hiring only ideological believers who cannot act professionally in senior positions and starts actually working with grassroots women’s groups to find solutions that work for everyone.

That would be a win!

Woodbees · 07/08/2022 07:53

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 08:31

Woodbees

Ok. Great. Looking forward to Stonewall basking in the success of this ‘win’ for the next five years while trying to stem the losses of organisations not renewing their membership and contracts . While finding a new method of silencing people publicly saying the things mentioned in the paragraphs, of stopping those paragraphs being replicated across the internet in articles in business media…

Really. I am truly looking forward to it.

And I am sure you are too.

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 08:33

Oh. And let’s not forget journalists continuing to point out the celebrating of transing a two year old!

That one will also be counted as a ‘win’ will it?

FreudayNight · 07/08/2022 08:44

Hearach15 · 06/08/2022 23:21

"Ben's exceptional performance" - he lost the case.

Stonewall had a much better lawyer.

Have you name changed RMW?

paragraph 19.

Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)
namechange9357 · 07/08/2022 08:51

The Times Legal section considered the judgement notable enough to make Ben Lawyer of the Week - that's a pretty massive endorsement of what he managed to achieve in this case.

I'm not an employment lawyer but it's self evidently always going to be an uphill battle to win an ET against someone like Stonewall who isn't the employer - the fact that the Tribunal agreed to hear days of evidence on Stonewall speaks to the unusual level of intervention in trying to get Alison chucked out of Chambers. Getting it heard at all was a significant win as far as I can see.

McDuffy · 07/08/2022 09:43

The heart eyes emoji is so try-hard 😍

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 09:50

mcduffy

When used in that manner, it shows quite clearly the maturity level and level of critical thinking ability of posters, doesn’t it?

We have had a few who have posted in a similar pattern. And those too posted the same emoji and others.

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 10:12

namechange9357 · 07/08/2022 08:51

The Times Legal section considered the judgement notable enough to make Ben Lawyer of the Week - that's a pretty massive endorsement of what he managed to achieve in this case.

I'm not an employment lawyer but it's self evidently always going to be an uphill battle to win an ET against someone like Stonewall who isn't the employer - the fact that the Tribunal agreed to hear days of evidence on Stonewall speaks to the unusual level of intervention in trying to get Alison chucked out of Chambers. Getting it heard at all was a significant win as far as I can see.

"The Times Legal section considered the judgement notable enough to make Ben Lawyer of the Week - that's a pretty massive endorsement of what he managed to achieve in this case."

The Times is a Gender Critical paper that like to big up GC people and causes.

It would be a much bigger endorsement of his skills as a lawyer if he had actually won the case against Stonewall.

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 10:13

Helleofabore · 07/08/2022 06:51

You clearly didn’t read this hearache and are up to your normal tricks of making what you think are pithy comebacks that progress your argument.

Anyone reading this judgement, would not be celebrating. These paragraphs will take Stonewall a very long time to recover from as PR objective.

Do you actually understand that Stonewall requires corporate funding for their existence?

Only a person who can only have a superficial view of business practices and government processes as you have displayed on numerous threads would take to celebrating. Or someone who thinks they can continue to get away with dishonesty.

I know you think you are on the wind up here tonight but all you continue to do is show how little you understand. And here your celebrating Stonewall is laughable.

If anyone in the Stonewall team is celebrating, it is because the Judge decided that the responsibility rested solely on GCC so Stonewall was released of responsibility.

This means

a) GCC’s senior management didn’t really take much Stonewall advised as useful or usable. And showed they, a renowned chambers with many LGB barristers and employees, only really paid lip service to Sonewall’s ‘evangelical’ teachings.

How are you going to spin that particular finding as a success for Stonewall? A chamber with many prominent LGB members don’t take the advice given seriously by Stonewall …

Hardly an endorsement.

b) this also signals that justice in this case required the GCC to take full responsibility for their actions. And that this judge was not going to allow GCC to move its responsibility to Stonewall.

Think about it. What precedent would that set? A chamber of barristers diverting responsibility for discrimination to an outside source? Would ANY advisory organisation exist within 2 years?

Do you actually understand this?

And how hard is it going to be to grow funding to cover the losses recently with those paragraphs?

These paragraphs, along with celebrating the transitioning of 2 year olds, Nancy Kelley’s statements (which you have persisted in not acknowledging)….

Only a fool would think this is truly a win. I suspect Stonewall posted intimating that it was a ‘win’ out of bravado. And influencers are trying bolster Stonewall’s reputation as their futures are entwined. But fools dance across the internet celebrating that avoidance of being forced to be responsible for their actions like this was a ‘win’.

If past form stays true, you, hearache, will either ignore this post, or try a distractive tactic, or write a short comeback that sounds clever in your head but not to anyone who has any depth of knowledge reading it.

"Only a fool would think this is truly a win."

Allison Baily won the case against Stonewall in the same way Donald Trump won the US Presidential election.

Would you not rather that she had won the case?

Hearach15 · 07/08/2022 10:16

TheBiologyStupid · 06/08/2022 23:57

Since you didn't read my post, @Hearach15, here's the short version of what Allison Bailey's case established as protected beliefs about Stonewall:

Stonewall's "campaigning on gender theory is sexist and homophobic" and it is "complicit" in "threats against women (including threats of violence and sexual violence)". "Gender theory as proselytised by [Stonewall] is severely detrimental to women for numerous reasons" and is "severely detrimental to lesbians [...] This is inherently homophobic [....]".

Not a good look for an organisation that was founded to fight for LGB rights, surely?

These are Allison Bailey's views, not the tribunal. And that's why she set up the LGB Alliance - a group few in the LGBT community regard as much more than a fringe joke.