Page 11 | Ben Cooper QC - Lawyer of the Week (in the Times)

Justme56 · 2022-08-04T07:13:39+00:00

Sorry I can't share the article, but liked this: *What is the funniest thing that has happened in your job?* As a result of my work in this area, apparently becoming an object of admiration on Mumsnet [the Internet parents' forum] - improbable in many ways. 😁

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:40

Yes, good point.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:41

Or are you going to continue to celebrate this as a ‘win’ on a feminist board which centres female people, whatever their identity.

Yes, I imagine they are.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 09:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 08:41

Or are you going to continue to celebrate this as a ‘win’ on a feminist board which centres female people, whatever their identity.

Yes, I imagine they are.

Yes Eresh. hearache’s glibness only continues to show the lack of self awareness of the misogyny we can see in many of their posts. What they think is a clever rebuttal generally results in failed gotcha attempts, or straight out examples of misogyny or just hatred, anger and derision towards women who disagree with them. It has been this since the first thread.

I actually hold out hope that they will come to realise that their posts come across as misogynistic though and they might start engaging.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 09:24

I actually hold out hope that they will come to realise that their posts come across as misogynistic though and they might start engaging.

A) they don't care that they come across as misogynistic

B) they aren't capable of engaging with the substance of the arguments on this board

Terfydactyl · 09/08/2022 09:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 09:24

I actually hold out hope that they will come to realise that their posts come across as misogynistic though and they might start engaging.

A) they don't care that they come across as misogynistic

B) they aren't capable of engaging with the substance of the arguments on this board

C) they are keeping this thread up on the top, anyone who comes here will be able to read this and the other threads about allison's case and see which side requires support dogs and mothers and crashing into bins and receiving emails at 3am and social media experts not knowing how Twitter works and all the other absolutely hilarious things along with the serious and harmful stuff. Keep going earache, please, you are doing us all a favour.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 10:02

And see that the chorus chiming in to celebrate have been deleted by MNHQ (obviously not following the guidelines of posting ). So not much support for Hearache.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/08/2022 10:03

Yes I would certainly recommend reading the live threads!

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 10:14

And we can continue to post this

twitter.com/moleatthedoor/status/1555230013384966147?s=21&t=50OpIpUhtBMMsthgxdKWLw

And say Ben Cooper is a God!

Datun · 09/08/2022 10:47

Just to be clear, the belief that stonewall is homophobic, detrimental to women, and severely detrimental to lesbians is now legally protected. In order to be so, it has to meet this criteria:

(i) The belief must be genuinely held.

(ii) It must be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available.

(iii) It must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.

(iv) It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.

(v) It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, be not incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

The judge found it cogent, serious, cohesive, important, and worthy of respect.

Anyone finding this a win for Stonewall should really examine whether their hopeless lack of credibility is making things worse for that charity.

Because, with friends like those...

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 11:45

Yes, let's have another look at the end result of Stonewall's advice.

Social Change UK created Bloody Brilliant on behalf of NHS Wales and the Welsh Government. And Bloody Brilliant have just created this little gem of dehumanisation for females.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11091543/NHS-advice-periods-goes-woke-Advice-refers-people-bleed.html

I can assure hearache and others, that females actually don't want to be described as anyone 'who bleeds'. This type of language has been advised by Stonewall. And here we are .... being described by an organisation engaged by the NHS Wales and the Welsh Government as people who bleed.

And yet .... males 'bleed' too. And if they 'bleed' from their genitals.... or their anuses, they really should be seeking medical assistance immediately.

At least when the government produces resources for people who 'ejaculate' there will be absolutely no ambiguity as to who that is aimed at. If those ejaculators know that it applies to them of course. Because that is whole point. Dehumanisation does not lead to understanding and diminishes the success of the communications effort.

No harm done here though, eh? Just to females. So, still well worth celebrating as a 'Stonewall' win! Fabulous!

Hearach15 · 09/08/2022 12:37

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 03:58

The lesbian who has access to free IVF on the NHS because Stonewall campaigned on the issue won.

Yes… let us also discuss the other side of that particular coin hearache , surrogacy. The exploitation of women’s bodies to produce children to order for others… are you sure you want to be celebrating surrogacy on a feminist board? I know you are not a feminist but you would have to be a fool to think celebrating surrogacy here in your glib fashion is acceptable.

The gay man brought to safety from Afghanistan to Britain because Stonewall sent their details to the Government won

and the details of just how many females? Did you find those statistics ? I mean, it is great to hear so many people were given safety…. This is a feminist board hearache, how many were female? And please don’t glibly do a sleight of hand deflection to ‘women’ again here.

The trans man in Scotland who will soon be able to change his birth cert through a statutory declaration thanks to Stonewall's lobbying won.

Could you please help us by telling us exactly how changing a birth certificate to male helps a transitioned female when their NHS details are changed (as they are currently) and this female is taken unconscious to A& E? Do you understand that there are well known cases, one where a transioned female died, where this change of sex marker has resulted in the wrong treatment ? Or not diagnosing the right health issue?

How is that a win for trans health?

The bisexual who can serve openly in the Armed Forces thanks to Stonewall's campaigning won.

Yes. Since 2000! Before the change in focus in 2015. And you can thank people who are now involved in LGB Alliance for that too. Those people who were part of Stonewall at the time. And a well celebrated win too!

Your examples are very male / man centric hearache. On a feminist board. Your misogynistic thinking really is not apparent to you is it?

You don’t even notice how misogynistic your posts are in your determination to ‘gotcha’ women who disagree with you. Are you this misogynistic in real life? Or is this just for our benefit?

Another great example of your intention here on FWR, if people weren’t already noticing it.

But yes. We hear you! Stonewall is great for males! We know this!

1 - "let us also discuss the other side of that particular coin hearache , surrogacy."

You've misunderstood what the Government did. It provided lesbians and single women who are fertile with free IVF. Nothing about surrogacy. These women are trying to get pregnant themselves.

2 - "the details of just how many females?"

Couldn't tell you. You're welcome to email or do an FOI to the Home Office if it matters that much. What I would say is it'll be more than the 0 (zero) the LGB Alliance you admire brought into the country.

3 - "Could you please help us by telling us exactly how changing a birth certificate to male helps"

There was an excellent piece in Holyrood mag the other day explaining why, here's a snippet:

"One of my friends had to marry as a man and now her marriage certificate doesn’t match her other documents."

www.holyrood.com/comment/view,comment-its-beyond-time-to-reform-the-gender-recognition-act

4 - "Your examples are very male / man centric hearache."

So I gave examples of how their campaigning benefited lesbians, gay men, a trans man (I could equally have just said trans women or trans people in general but I know the existence of trans women does trigger GC people) and bisexuals (gender neutral).

So 1 for women, 1 gender neutral and another 2 for men. Glad to see you recognise that trans men are men!

Hearach15 · 09/08/2022 12:43

Datun · 09/08/2022 10:47

Just to be clear, the belief that stonewall is homophobic, detrimental to women, and severely detrimental to lesbians is now legally protected. In order to be so, it has to meet this criteria:

(i) The belief must be genuinely held.

(ii) It must be a belief and not an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available.

(iii) It must be a belief as to a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour.

(iv) It must attain a certain level of cogency, seriousness, cohesion and importance.

(v) It must be worthy of respect in a democratic society, be not incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

The judge found it cogent, serious, cohesive, important, and worthy of respect.

Anyone finding this a win for Stonewall should really examine whether their hopeless lack of credibility is making things worse for that charity.

Because, with friends like those...

"Anyone finding this a win for Stonewall should really examine whether their hopeless lack of credibility".

You know who found them credible? The judge.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:06

You've misunderstood what the Government did. It provided lesbians and single women who are fertile with free IVF. Nothing about surrogacy. These women are trying to get pregnant themselves.

I haven't misunderstood at all hearache and it is great that lesbians can get access to IVF. You would be very foolish to NOT understand the other strand of 'fertility equality' though, or willfully ignorant.

Are you being willfully ignorant to ignore that surrogacy also is something that organisations such as Stonewall activate for? Under the guise of 'fertility equality'?

And are you also being willfully ignorant to ignore where donor eggs are harvested from? Females. Sometimes through exploitive and coercive means too.

So you know which sex gets exploited for IVF when a donor egg is needed and for surrogacy? Females. And in some instances, the children that result from these acts who don't know their biological parentage and suffer poor mental health because of it.

Maybe you didn't know. Maybe you have never actually thought about this.

But, hey.... you are on a feminist board, so we must assume you do know. And are just choosing to be ignorant of the wider picture of IVF and fertility equality.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:10

Couldn't tell you. You're welcome to email or do an FOI to the Home Office if it matters that much. What I would say is it'll be more than the 0 (zero) the LGB Alliance you admire brought into the country.

No. This isn't an opportunity for you to sink the boot into LGB Alliance, even though that may seem to be a good opportunity. LGB Alliance is a new charity with limited resources vs Stonewall with decades of funding. You know this, we have discussed this at length with you on other threads.

Remember, where YOU couldn't come up with any activity that Stonewall had done within the first 2-3 years of existence, to directly compare to the successes already achieved by LGB Alliance? I can link up the thread if you like.

Even so you are on a feminist board centring males. Well done hearache. The message just isn't sinking in, is it?

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:11

There was an excellent piece in Holyrood mag the other day explaining why, here's a snippet:

"One of my friends had to marry as a man and now her marriage certificate doesn’t match her other documents."

Wow... what a dishonest post. Can you not answer it? There are significant ramifications for this action that you are celebrating.

That question again:

Could you please help us by telling us exactly how changing a birth certificate to male helps a transitioned female when their NHS details are changed (as they are currently) and this female is taken unconscious to A& E? Do you understand that there are well known cases, one where a transioned female died, where this change of sex marker has resulted in the wrong treatment ? Or not diagnosing the right health issue?

How is that a win for trans health?

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:14

So I gave examples of how their campaigning benefited lesbians, gay men, a trans man (I could equally have just said trans women or trans people in general but I know the existence of trans women does trigger GC people) and bisexuals (gender neutral).

So 1 for women, 1 gender neutral and another 2 for men. Glad to see you recognise that trans men are men!

No, another dishonest post. And you are again crowing about it.

Your examples are male centric, they don't actually benefit females. Regardless of how that female identifies.

Are you actually going to engage with feminist issues Hearache or are you simply going to persist in doubling down on centring males?

sanluca · 09/08/2022 13:23

C) they are keeping this thread up on the top, anyone who comes here will be able to read this and the other threads about allison's case and see which side requires support dogs and mothers and crashing into bins and receiving emails at 3am and social media experts not knowing how Twitter works and all the other absolutely hilarious things along with the serious and harmful stuff. Keep going earache, please, you are doing us all a favour.

To be honest, what Hearache is mainly doing is making my ears ache with their gloating, whining and extremely annoying misinterpretation of everything being said. It is probably the childish way in which they phrase their responses which makes it sound a lot like 'nahnahnahnah' in my head.

But the tone of those responses alone, not even taking into account the lack of any real debating on their side, is so off putting and shows the utter contempt the TRA side has for women in general. That is doing us a massive favour: anyone knows it is unreasonable to try and reason with children.

Datun · 09/08/2022 13:25

Hearach15 · 09/08/2022 12:43

"Anyone finding this a win for Stonewall should really examine whether their hopeless lack of credibility".

You know who found them credible? The judge.

Show quote history

Oh dear. You're perfectly welcome to this win. I hope you have many more like it. I predict you will.

The belief that stonewall is homophobic, detrimental to women, and severely detrimental to lesbians is now legally protected.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:32

Datun · 09/08/2022 13:25

Oh dear. You're perfectly welcome to this win. I hope you have many more like it. I predict you will.

The belief that stonewall is homophobic, detrimental to women, and severely detrimental to lesbians is now legally protected.

Show quote history

Hear! Hear!

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:43

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:06

You've misunderstood what the Government did. It provided lesbians and single women who are fertile with free IVF. Nothing about surrogacy. These women are trying to get pregnant themselves.

I haven't misunderstood at all hearache and it is great that lesbians can get access to IVF. You would be very foolish to NOT understand the other strand of 'fertility equality' though, or willfully ignorant.

Are you being willfully ignorant to ignore that surrogacy also is something that organisations such as Stonewall activate for? Under the guise of 'fertility equality'?

And are you also being willfully ignorant to ignore where donor eggs are harvested from? Females. Sometimes through exploitive and coercive means too.

So you know which sex gets exploited for IVF when a donor egg is needed and for surrogacy? Females. And in some instances, the children that result from these acts who don't know their biological parentage and suffer poor mental health because of it.

Maybe you didn't know. Maybe you have never actually thought about this.

But, hey.... you are on a feminist board, so we must assume you do know. And are just choosing to be ignorant of the wider picture of IVF and fertility equality.

Perhaps Hearache while you are here, you can actually learn something.

Shall I link up the threads discussing the exploitation of females for their eggs for implantation into other females, and the threads discussing the hugely exploitative issues around surrogacy? I am so glad that you asked.

There you can find out about the very negative side-effects to the female bodies in the chemicals used to grow and harvest eggs. Horrifically, this can leave the donor with strokes, loss of their own fertility, incredible pain and agony and many many other health issues...

Shall we discuss those then?

And then the mental health issues as I mentioned, that children who are born using this process and surrogacy have started to report later in life?

Shall we discuss those too? Stonewall does advocate for this under the guise of 'fertility equality' of course.

And then... surrogacy - look here is a few to start you off with. They discuss all the above issues in some way.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4440005-To-not-understand-the-issue-with-surrogacy

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4239144-Surrogacy-ends-in-abortion-and-ends-a-friendship

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4478157-Why-surrogacy-should-be-banned

But maybe, just maybe, you will start actually thinking about what you are posting and stop posting things that really show you have never even thought about the issues.

Your gotchas quite often backfire. But don't worry, it is a good opportunity to learn something feminist.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:47

Couldn't tell you. You're welcome to email or do an FOI to the Home Office if it matters that much. What I would say is it'll be more than the 0 (zero) the LGB Alliance you admire brought into the country.

So, you are praising Stonewall for rescuing people. Great. It was a very great thing. But you are trying to use this, with its male centred reporting indicating that it was the majority of males on those planes and not a equal balance, as some kind of action to be praised on a Feminist thread.

You really do not think. Or listen. Or try to understand, do you?

Well done! Stonewall rescued a group which is wonderful.... where were the females? You know, the ones that are directly harmed every single day en-masse by having to live under the Taliban.

Well done! Hearache! This also just takes equal prize for thoughtlessness!

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 14:09

But I really appreciate hearache that you give us so much opportunity to point our where the wider ramifications of Stonewall's action are, in fact, harmful to females. And you seem very proud of that.

Your twists lead us all different directions making this a rather informative thread in the end.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 14:25

While we are discussing the negative repercussions of Stonewall's actions for females, and in some cases, harm ....

Why don't you pop over to this thread and have a look at the dehumanising and very bizarre language they have directly influenced with their language guidance over the years (or are you going to deny that too?)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4607642-people-who-bleed-new-guidance-about-periods?page=1

I am very glad that I will not be deleted for saying "that stonewall is homophobic, detrimental to women, and severely detrimental to lesbians" though.

We did used to! What a win!

Howappropriate · 09/08/2022 14:42

Terfydactyl · 09/08/2022 09:58

C) they are keeping this thread up on the top, anyone who comes here will be able to read this and the other threads about allison's case and see which side requires support dogs and mothers and crashing into bins and receiving emails at 3am and social media experts not knowing how Twitter works and all the other absolutely hilarious things along with the serious and harmful stuff. Keep going earache, please, you are doing us all a favour.

Show quote history

Don't forget Mariah Carey!
You truly couldn't make it up. The movie is going to be fabulous.

Hearach15 · 09/08/2022 15:17

Helleofabore · 09/08/2022 13:06

You've misunderstood what the Government did. It provided lesbians and single women who are fertile with free IVF. Nothing about surrogacy. These women are trying to get pregnant themselves.

I haven't misunderstood at all hearache and it is great that lesbians can get access to IVF. You would be very foolish to NOT understand the other strand of 'fertility equality' though, or willfully ignorant.

Are you being willfully ignorant to ignore that surrogacy also is something that organisations such as Stonewall activate for? Under the guise of 'fertility equality'?

And are you also being willfully ignorant to ignore where donor eggs are harvested from? Females. Sometimes through exploitive and coercive means too.

So you know which sex gets exploited for IVF when a donor egg is needed and for surrogacy? Females. And in some instances, the children that result from these acts who don't know their biological parentage and suffer poor mental health because of it.

Maybe you didn't know. Maybe you have never actually thought about this.

But, hey.... you are on a feminist board, so we must assume you do know. And are just choosing to be ignorant of the wider picture of IVF and fertility equality.

"I haven't misunderstood at all hearache and it is great that lesbians can get access to IVF."

Indeed it is and I'm very glad Stonewall campaigned on this issue.

I see the LGB Alliance (who you brought up in this thread) did not say anything about this great news. I wonder is that because some of their prominent supporters do not approve of lesbian families?