Nick Cohen suspended over trans rights row

[WontonJulie]

I see a certain so-called 'campaiging lawyer' has managed to get Nick Cohen suspended because of his gender critical views.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/08/02/star-observer-columnist-suspended-trans-rights-row/

Anyway, it's really tedious seeing another thread derailed by the febrile protestations of itsabouttimetoo.

Indeed.

I suspect that you have had quite a bit of experience on MN FWR.

Again, it is you who have constantly personally attacked people rather than engage, on this thread, with the topic at hand. People are not 'piling on' you. They are trying to point out that you are not posting in the published MN talk guidelines.

if you believe I belong somewhere else in my own “echo chamber” as you call it, if you truly believe in your rhetoric of protecting women then you would allow me to exist in yours as well.

This is really tedious.

I don't believe that ANY person should exist in an 'echo chamber'. Ever. I can probably confidently say that not one poster on FWR would say anyone should exist in an echo chamber. So, please can you just stop with the accusations that are based on your own false prejudice.

@Datun I’ve posted multiple times without being deleted. Secondly, I was also personally attacked on the other thread, first in fact. So how do you protect some people that attack, but then others you are the ones attacking?

@Helleofabore if that post offended you and was against the guidelines then I am sorry. I do still struggle to see how a poster calling my siblings penis sisters, is much different to any content I’ve posted - that would also be considered a personal attack.

I would be interested in you answering the other points in my post, if you believe that all of you on this thread “played nicely” on the other thread (again the first indication of playing was raised by a GC not me) my posts cannot seriously be of offence to you - the difference is that you all have similar views, mine are different.

As mentioned, this forum is not just for people with GC views, I am allowed to exist in this space to, within the guidelines as I have found out.

Too*

And please continue talking re. Nick Cohen. It is not derailing a thread for me to point out that he is a sex pest and that there is transphobia on this thread and unfair attacking of trans rights supporters AND women who are accused of lying. If you find it tedious me calling out transphobia then imagine how tedious I find it seeing transphobia.

@AlisonDonut yes, I will allow MNHQ to make the judgement, rather than you.

a GC

jesus

This may disappoint you, itsabouttimetoo, but accusations of transphobia come so thick and fast that for most of us they are now like water off a duck's back.

I refer people to Jane Clare Jones's excellent post explaining why the term "transphobic" is essentially meaningless:

janeclarejones.com/2018/09/09/gay-rights-and-trans-rights-a-compare-and-contrast/

if that post offended you and was against the guidelines then I am sorry. I do still struggle to see how a poster calling my siblings penis sisters, is much different to any content I’ve posted - that would also be considered a personal attack.

If you think that the post which is the first post on this thread is an example of positive engagement, then I guess you have a very different perception of what positive engagement is.

If a post has been reported for personal attack, and still stands after that report, I guess you can be assured that it falls within the guidelines. If you have an issue with the guidelines and how they are applied, I encourage you to contact MNHQ and discuss it. Again, I know that many of us have in the past.

I would be interested in you answering the other points in my post, if you believe that all of you on this thread “played nicely” on the other thread (again the first indication of playing was raised by a GC not me) my posts cannot seriously be of offence to you - the difference is that you all have similar views, mine are different.

There is clearly a difference in what you consider 'playing nicely'. Your post was not offensive to me, but again, I repeat, it was not what I would consider engaging with the topic of this thread. In any way. But obviously, you think differently and that is your prerogative.

mine are different. Are they? Really? I have not seen anything that actually reflects your views, just personal attacks and discussion about those personal attacks. In fact, the only posts I have noticed from you across the threads are those policing what people are saying. And bragging about getting threads deleted and admitting that was your aim.

Are you views 'different'? How? And why do you think that we all have the 'same view'? In fact, we are always having debates about issues and coming at them from different perspectives here.

As mentioned, this forum is not just for people with GC views, I am allowed to exist in this space to, within the guidelines as I have found out.

FFS. No one wants you to 'not exist'. What kind of hyperbole is that? And again, WE KNOW that this forum is not just for people of one view point. WE KNOW!

Interesting turn of phrase, Bernard.

I'm curious as to the answers to Helleofabore's questions.

Has anyone not agreed that Nick Cohen should be investigated and if found guilty, then he should be punished? Anyone?

Please do report any transphobia you see.

Again, MNHQ are very very sensitive to transphobic posts. I am sure you must know this. So, therefore, if you report a post and it is not deleted, perhaps you have a very different definition of what is transphobic and what is not. Because MNHQ will tend to err on the side of caution on that particular call.

Maybe it would be helpful if you provided a list of what you consider is transphobic so that we understand where you are coming from?

By the way.

There is a very narrow definition that MNHQ has of 'in the spirit' and 'civil engagement'. I know this from personal experience, I say this because perhaps this is also contributing to your deletions.

Only you will know, because they will be telling you why your posts are being deleted.

the irony is I'd LOVE to be able to have a straight up conversation with a person who believes that gender is more important than sex. I admit that it can often get a little hectic for those people on this board, because I'm not the only one who feels that way.

But if someone could cogently explain to me why they believe gender is more important than sex and should be used as the basis of (for example) segregating prisons, I'd be delighted.

Ideally without mentioning the words 'transphobic', 'bullying', or using the phrase 'a GC'.

Anyhoo

As stated previously, the only thing this thread has to do with trans issues is that Jolyon Maugham wouldn't have given two shits about any transgressions by Nick Cohen against women if Cohen hadn't said something which Maugham took to be 'anti trans'.

and I don't think there's a single poster on the thread who hasn't said that the allegations against Cohen should be investigated and he should face consequences for his actions.

Yep! Way to dehumanise a group.

I have not seen any regular poster use the term 'the transes' on this board. Yet, there is a constant flow of 'the GCs' 'a GC' and to be fair, it does seem to come from posters who have come from other social media platforms.

It is usually an indication of someone with an entrenched preconception or prejudice and not someone who is open to discussion and reading of evidence etc.

I don't think there's a single poster on the thread who hasn't said that the allegations against Cohen should be investigated and he should face consequences for his actions.

Yes Bernard. But the constant mentioning of it as an 'issue' on this thread would lead any reader to believe that posters have stated otherwise. Particularly in paragraphs and posts pointing fingers about transphobic behaviour and such.

Which is why it needs to be refuted every time.

I have not seen any regular poster use the term 'the transes' on this board. Yet, there is a constant flow of 'the GCs' 'a GC' and to be fair, it does seem to come from posters who have come from other social media platforms.

It puts people who use it squarely in a certain narrow cohort of people, in my mind.

When it comes to abusing women there should be no sacred castes of men. Charity workers, political allies, religious leaders, members of minority ethnic, gender or sexuality groups they should all be treated just like any other man.

Yes Eresh, there is a pattern also that too often where that type of language is used, there is an over reliance on emotionally manipulative tactics or emotionally charged, sometimes hyperbolic, reasoning and no creditable evidence is provided.

Definitely.

I never report anything, I want it to stand. The only things I ever report are porn spam.

Because I believe in free speech and am more than happy to counteract your ideology with actual facts.

Anyway back to Nick Cohen. Any comment on him any more or is it all about you?

generally the question being asked is ‘why do you think that?’

all the requests for definitions and evidence kind of boil down to that

if being asked how you reached your views makes you feel bullied I really think that should make you stop and think

@Helleofabore I provided a list of what I considered to be transphobic and just generally harassment and discrimination and was told “well trans people misgender me”.

My issues on the previous thread were:
a) it was a personal attack on someone that most posters had never met including a dissecting of her story, laughing at things she had said and making assumptions about her views e.g the space for all in toilets. I have noticed that their tends to be a lot of assumption around peoples views or existence and a group mentality, without actually knowing and listening.

b) a poster encouraging the OP to purposefully misgender - that is a definition of transphobia especially as she has her GRC.

When I pointed this out this was bullying as it was a personal attack I was told that I was throwing my sisters under the bus and was a hand maiden. I was also laughed at when I mentioned that I fight daily for women, just because some posters find it hard to believe that there are people out there who are doing both.

My issue with this post is what I have stated above. I don’t play to get threads deleted, I comment on threads I believe should be deleted due to the nature of the post. As you said, MNHQ are very sensitive to transphobia so if an entire thread offensive enough to be deleted then that should be your answer as well. If I am being told I need to read the guidelines, then the same applies when an entire thread is also deleted.

There is also continued hypocrisy for example, posters are allowed to dehumanise trans people, or people that are not trans by referring to them as TRA and I’m told to get a thicker skin, but then points like referring to people as GC are pulled up as dehumanising. Why are you allowed to use the term TRA and I can’t use the term GC? I referred to someone as a GC because it is easier than typing out “a gender critical poster” but if you are offended by that then I can refer to you as gender critical posters.

@BernardBlacksWineIcelolly it is incredibly hectic. Not least because any attempt to engage you are metaphorically screamed at: sources, evidence, you haven’t responded to x y z in 0.2 minutes so you can’t debate. If you leave the thread because you might have an actual job to do you are accused of flouncing. If you wish people to engage critically with you then I would say that posters on here need to take some of their own advice as well.

@Helleofabore i have also seen posters accused of hyperbole constantly and repeatedly- same way you say transphobia is thrown out repeatedly. It isn’t hyperbole to state that I am allowed to exist on the thread without being hounded for my views - it is truth.

@AlisonDonut i have made my comments on Nick Cohen, he should go, he should have gone a long time ago, it is offensive to call women liars and reaching hugely for it to be linked to trans rights supporters in any way.

To try to get this thread back on track, here's a summary of the facts as I see them:

1. The Daily Telegraph reported that Observer columnist Nick Cohen is being investigated by the paper's publisher, Guardian News and Media (GNM). The Telegraph said that after Jolyon Maugham was unhappy with what he saw as an anti-trans article by Cohen, "[Maugham] then put out an appeal on Twitter encouraging women to share any complaints about Mr Cohen. Mr Maugham forwarded several allegations to GNM in late 2021 and published claims about Mr Cohen's behaviour online last month, claiming he was unhappy with how his concerns had been handled".

2. However, The New European reports, 'but lawyers for the paper state that none of them wanted to make a formal complaint. The Observer has since “paused” Cohen’s column as he co-operates with an ongoing investigation. Cohen has described the allegations made against him as “vile and untrue”.'

3. Neither the Telegraph nor New European mentions any allegations of sexual misconduct against Cohen. The Telegraph says that 'Lucy Siegle, a freelance journalist and BBC One Show presenter, reportedly complained to managers in February about about an encounter with Mr Cohen while working at the Guardian 17 years earlier. In an interview with Press Gazette, she described how a senior manager at Guardian News and Media was "aggressive" and "spent half the time trying to diminish what I was saying".'
   The New European says that, "Four or five years ago, a group of 30 to 40 female journalists at the Guardian demanded a meeting with editor-in-chief Kath Viner to complain of a culture of misogyny and sexist bullying within the newsrooms", but doesn't explicitly link Cohen to the alleged culture.

4. Unsurprisingly, no-one on this board endorses misogyny, sexist bullying, or sexual misconduct (although as noted above, neither of the newspaper reports linked to in this thread accuse Cohen of the latter). Regardless of Maugham's motives in asking women to come forward with stories about Cohen, any complaints should be given serious consideration and dealt with fairly.