Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children

[GettingMarriedAgain]

Breaking news in the Times and Telegraph:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1ed2bea-0e63-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=4fa557c3083dee141defde72e0e53d54

Which is of course what the trans activists are trying to argue is happening with the huge increase in teenage girls being referred to gender clinics.

The evidence is not in their favour. Increased social acceptance carries across age groups. An extreme increase in just one age group doesn't look like social acceptance.

Especially not when it's the age/sex demographic that traditionally gets involved with social contagions.

I they sit on the same scale and not actually that far apart. Professionals may not yet be attacking parents but they are still under pressure to affirm self-diagnosis of ASD. And there is an online community that demonises parents or anything they see as requiring autistic children to 'conform' - including things like speech and language therapy. It just needs some of those activists to get into patient advisory groups.

Yes, they often refer to ABA as autistic conversion therapy. (Not that ABA is without its issues, especially historically — I just find it interesting that autistic activism is modelling itself so closely in many ways on LGBTQ activism.)

These last few pages on this thread about social contagion, autism, tics, trans gender - are the first time in years that I’ve experienced grounded, intelligent, unbiased and truly open debate about this, it’s such a relief! Are we becoming a society that is repressing this kind of rigorous debate, with these intense ideologies?

For me the trans gender, functional tics and social contagion (and ideological influence) stand out. Trans gender referrals have increased at such a rate, at the same time as trans ideologies have. The trans lobbies would say they were mere, as another poster referred, revealing what is already there like in when more people ‘came out’ as gay in more liberal societies. And it’s very hard to argue against this. Except who are these children saying that are in the wrong body? It’s not across the board, which you would expect. It’s teenager girls, 30% (I think from Dr Cass report) autistic, many vulnerable as in looked after children. There is no good research or investigation as far as I know looking into why these are more vulnerable children.

Functional tics can often be traced directly to the social media influencer. Which is fascinating when you think about it. In America many teenagers were turning up for diagnosis with exactly the same tics, with english accents, and the clinicians were - what on earth is going on? As these kids weren’t in the same school or region.

And yet even calling them ‘functional tics’ is giving them equal weight to ‘classic tics’. But one is mimicking and the other is neurological. The clinicians are saying ‘well we are not sure what it is’ and not making that distinction. Odd.

The weird thing about "functional neurological disorders", which spans a wide range of symptoms of non-neurological origin (so far as we know) from movement problems to weakness to seizures to tics and probably lots more, is that as far as we know they don't feel at all voluntary to the sufferer. There are also malingerers/fakers, but there are quite a lot who are genuinely surprised that what they're experiencing isn't a biologically-findable neurological disorder. People naturally get upset if they think they're being accused of faking or imagining or somehow themselves causing a problem that feels involuntary, and it's very awkward trying to get them to accept the kinds of treatment that can help them. So you need to at least give it a name that has credibility and gravitas, to reassure people that whatever the etiology, their problem is taken seriously. "Psychogenic" and "hysterical" feel like a pejorative accusation to people — I'd guess at some point "functional" will gather than connotation too, but I don't know.

FND is more common in women, which is why people have been allowed to go down the mimic / unreal / malingering line.

If we saw this with an increase in males presenting with the symptoms then we sure as hell would have more understanding by the illness by now. There are a significant amount of women who I know who have been diagnosed with FND and then go on to get another diagnosis (most likely MS) and it transpires there were insufficient investigations carried out when they started presenting with symptoms.

So interesting. We’ve had all of these in our house. Dysphoria; trans, adhd, autism. The tic thing was most recent and particularly unconvincing. They all followed the same pattern. Sudden appearance of a completely new behaviour. Behaviour ignored. Attention drawn to that behaviour. Neutral response. Behaviour escalates . Neutral response. Attention again drawn, along with accusation of neglect. Suggestion that they get it checked out if they are concerned ( over 18). Announcement that we have noticed behaviour and are concerned. Medical opinion sought. Reassurance offered. Announcement that Dr has also noticed the behaviour. And so on.
Collecting labels Willy Nilly, and at some point these labels will impede a chosen path. Then we will perhaps be accused of medicalising. I made a decision at the point of most danger that I would listen and be respectful, but I would never ever pretend that I could see something that I couldn’t see, or agree to ways forward that I believed harmful. Saved my sanity. And before someone tells me what a cruel and neglectful parent I am, I would also like to say that there are other issues but they are very much loved and doing ok.

I guess some people are just very suggestible, especially during certain parts of their life. And some do consciously make things up or at least play them up for attention, but my instinct is to be charitable about the deliberateness of a symptom until otherwise demonstrated, because it can do more harm to falsely accuse than to be seen as gullible. Your approach sounds sensible Zebra.

The article you have referred to is a must read, so interesting and articulate. What is most surprising is that we never see or hear this view, it is crushed. Thanks for posting. I worry a lot about the most vulnerable, as a society it feels we are getting less caring.

For me FND functional neurological disorder is different, a person is not finding a diagnosis that is ‘fashionable’ and hinging all of their problems onto it, or is not mimicking. There isn’t a pay off or a tribe to belong to. For me it’s quite different from taking on a social media influencers tics, or having gender ideology to pin onto.

Mmm, social contagion tics are probably different in some ways, I guess they just categorise contagious tics as "functional tics" for want of a better category to put them in.

The article you have referred to is a must read, so interesting and articulate.

Glad you found it interesting. While digging it up I also found this Bari Weiss podcast discussing the topic with its writer. Haven't listened to it myself, but I imagine it should be worthwhile.

Honestly: Does Glorifying Sickness Deter Healing?

@NecessaryScene thanks so interesting, it’s refreshing to have these ideas out in the open. Will have a listen!

Thank you for such a fascinating and informed discussion. I'm sure that this is the consequence of #nodebate being finally binned. Hopefully it will slowly spread into the mainstream where the majority who also centre children's rights will finally be allowed to speak up. .

We have OCD in this house and how you have responded is very much how families are told to respond to OCD - do not make accommodations. Making accommodations reinforces the compulsion, gives justification for it and it will get worse. Easier said than done at times though.

The pay off may not always be obvious or straightforward but that doesn't mean there isn't a pay off.

A cousin has FND. When first diagnosed the clinician explain common symptoms including a bunch he had not experienced up to that point. Over the next 24 hours he experienced every one of those new symptoms. He also drives. I queried this as he has seizures and his leg sometimes 'goes' but my aunt said it was fine as he never had these whilst driving the car. I think it is more complex than saying he is faking it but there is definitely an element of concious involvement.

@Lovelyricepudding I would tell them I was reporting to DVLA. It’s just not on.

I have a family friend with a learning difficulty. Before lockdown she was a frequent visitor to my home and loved my dogs. After Lockdown she wouldn’t come , too scared of the dogs. I didnt understand until I-went for a walk with her and her mother. Every time a dog got within 50 feet of us the mother started shouting that her daughter was scared and to keep the dog away, and daughter would cry. It was insane. When I pointed this out the mother agreed. She thought dogs should be banned from parks! Couldn’t see what she’d done.

If his symptoms don't affect his driving then reporting would just be to prove a point, surely?

He also drives. I queried this as he has seizures and his leg sometimes 'goes' but my aunt said it was fine as he never had these whilst driving the car.

You are right. If a person has a seizure they should stop driving and tell the DVLA. It's irrelevant whether or not they were driving when it happened.

Yes, this.

I have a close family member who is epileptic (on drugs to control it). Every time they have a breakthrough seizure even just once, they have to stop driving for 6 months to a year and report to DVLA. This is the law. What he is doing is illegal.

My family member has never ever had a seizure when driving. It is the law to have to stop driving for a period of time after each seizure. So they have had to stop driving for about 4-5 years in total in the last 15. In the case of the family member, usually when there's a breakthrough seizure they adjust the medication - and I presume the time period of illegality for driving is to ensure the seizures are well controlled before they recommence.

If they have a seizure when driving they could kill themselves and lots of other people too, awful thing to do to drive when having seizures and illegal too.

I totally agree but I am not close to them so it is hearsay (my aunt). If I heard it directly I would definitely report. I am not sure the reported 'seizures' are actually seizures as they seem too 'convenient'.