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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children

698 replies

GettingMarriedAgain · 28/07/2022 12:27

Breaking news in the Times and Telegraph:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1ed2bea-0e63-11ed-93cf-b011fa7fe86b?shareToken=4fa557c3083dee141defde72e0e53d54

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
GrowlingManchego · 31/07/2022 23:10

Thank you everyone, such useful background. It’s absolutely tragic for those who have been damaged by this ideology, and at the same time brilliant that such bright people are able to stick their heads above the parapet to defend what is right. I will definitely pick up a copy of Helen Joyce’s book and be active in helping to hold these new devolved services to account.

Datun · 31/07/2022 23:14

Thank you Icake!

yes, I'm pretty certain it's that one. Although I don't remember the word umbrella in it. Is there another one with a very similar title?

Thank you tho. V kind.

LK1972 · 31/07/2022 23:25

This thread is also interesting www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3756530-Beaumont-Society on the history of capture in UK, if I remember correctly.

IcakethereforeIam · 31/07/2022 23:35

It's the only one I can think of, but something is tickling my mind...was there something on Glinner's. If there was it was at least a few months ago.

bottleofbeer · 01/08/2022 00:36

I'm utterly convinced this was about unethical research. Turn it into a bigotry thing to question it and they had carte blanche to do what they wanted.

After things like the Stanford experiment and Milgram's electric shock experiment proved that they were negatively affecting the mental health of participants, psychological experiments were reigned right in. Ethics sayssss nooooo.

This is how they started them up again.

WarriorN · 01/08/2022 06:10

@Datun this is another one I remember

Let's go back to 2007 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

And I was trying to find an article of a much earlier umbrella drawing I read about recently but came across this.

This is a potted history of how puberty blockers first came to be used in the U.K. and by who by Michael Biggs

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Reading the two together, the same names pop up and you can see the concerted effort that was made to both lobby Government, clinics and work with charities etc.

There's also the below nugget from the Women and Equalities Committee Oral evidence: Transgender Equality Inquiry, HC 390 Tuesday 15 Sept 2015

Witnesses: included Susie Green, Chair, Mermaids and Dr Bernadette Wren, Head of Psychology and Associate Director, Gender Identity Development Service,

Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
WarriorN · 01/08/2022 06:43

From Biggs:

"A crucial role was played by organizations that campaign for the transgendering of children: the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) and Mermaids. GIRES organized a symposium in London in 2005 to develop “guidelines for endocrinological intervention”. Additional funding came from Mermaids, two medical charities—Nuffield Foundation and King’s Fund—and the Servite Sisters Charitable Trust Fund. This brought together the creators of the Dutch protocol, American clinicians like Norman Spack in Boston, and key British figures such as Domenico Di Ceglie, the Director of GIDS, and Polly Carmichael and Russell Viner, both at Great Ormond Street Hospital. (The latter two would lead the 2011 experiment.)

Some of the participants vigorously lobbied for the Dutch protocol. Veronica Sharp from Mermaids “described users’ and parents’ views of the available treatments, and the anguish they may experience when hormone blocking is delayed” (GIRES 2005). The symposium ended with agreement to push for amendments to guidance from bodies like BSPED, and to conduct collaborative research between London, Amsterdam, and Boston. There was another meeting in Amsterdam in the following year, but the collaboration did not eventuate.

International developments did enable parents to circumvent the NHS. GIRES (2006) warned that “those who can in any way afford to do so have to consider taking their children to the USA”. The first was Susie Green, who later became the chief executive of Mermaids. In 2007 she took her son Jackie, aged 12, to Boston, to purchase a prescription for GnRHa from Spack; the drug was supplied by an online Canadian pharmacy (Sun, 19 October 2011). A presentation at Mermaids, presumably by Green, instructed parents in this medical tourism (Mermaids 2007). Spack treated a further seven British children over the next few years (Times, 22 January 2012).

By 2008, GIRES was more strident in criticizing British clinicians. One of its founders, Terry Reed, denounced them as “transphobic”:

They are hoping that during puberty the natural hormones themselves will act on the brain to ‘cure’ these trans teenagers. What we do know is what happens if you don’t offer hormone blockers. You are stuck with unwanted secondary sex characteristics in the long term and in the short term these teenagers end up suicidal. (Guardian, 14 August 2008)

Reed was clearly drawing on the experience of her own child, who transitioned two decades before."

WarriorN · 01/08/2022 06:48

Ah found it, trans umbrella drawing from 1994

womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

WarriorN · 01/08/2022 06:49

LK1972 · 31/07/2022 23:25

This thread is also interesting www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3756530-Beaumont-Society on the history of capture in UK, if I remember correctly.

The above article talks about Beaumont as well as linking to the let's go back to 2007 thread.

WarriorN · 01/08/2022 06:57

The womenspeak article describes how the word "trans" as an umbrella term, was gradually introduced by burns and whittle so that it became more commonly used and the distinction between transexual and transvestite was deliberately blurred.

WarriorN · 01/08/2022 07:04

Reed in the guardian, 2017. I believe she died last year.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/05/trans-child-schools-help-transition-prejudice?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

(Mermaids 'nhs stamped' education advice link in article no longer exists)

Datun · 01/08/2022 07:19

Thank you WarriorN! Yes, it's the Burns and Whittle influence I was thinking of.

I hope Hilary Cass is aware of all the players involved in this.

notanicepersonapparently · 01/08/2022 08:20

As awful as the treatment of children has been, I wonder whether there is another issue which needs investigation. Does anyone know what evidence there might be that cross sex hormones are safe in the long term? Will there be a spate of breast cancer in adult MTF transitioners for example? If the NHS didn't follow up their child patients, have they followed up their adult patients?

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 08:20

So a UK doctor has thanked TRA US doctor Jack Turban for his support (Turban is misrepresenting the Tavistock news and drumming up fear about "transphobic UK media).

twitter.com/DrGilluley/status/1552699330586464258?t=eMj07VKyONLA9gscDsQb8w&s=19

(Jesse Singal exposes some of Turban's dishonesty here:

twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1499216769206075400?t=X_wlUk4UMneoFHLAX6EMow&s=19 )

The UK doctor is a Chief Medical Officer with pronouns in his bio who retweets typical TRA views.

We're still fucked, aren't we?

Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
Tavistock clinic to close as not safe for children
LizzieSiddal · 01/08/2022 08:37

The UK doctor is a Chief Medical Officer with pronouns in his bio who retweets typical TRA views.

Didn’t the Cass report state Ideology was over ruling evidence (or lack of it) at the Tavi and this should not happen at the new centres?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/08/2022 09:11

That's disappointing. Google tells me that Dr Paul Gilluley is the Chief Medical Officer of the East London NHS Foundation Trust, which provides mental health and primary care to a large geographical area. He's a forensic psychiatrist by training and used to work for the West London Mental Health Trust which runs Broadmoor Hospital. Forensic psychiatry is the branch that deals with mentally ill people and people with personality disorders who are also in some way involved with the criminal justice system or other branches of the law. Of all HCPs, the ones who work in forensic mental health should be the most aware of just how manipulative and dishonest criminals and especially sex offenders can be.

If Dr Gilluley has thought about this at all, as opposed to just supporting transactivism as something 'nice', surely he must see what a gift it is to these people to be able to game the system by falsely claiming a trans identity and getting moved to female accommodation?

Here are a few who are obviously loving every minute of the special treatment coming out as trans has led to:
kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons/

(Disclaimer - I'm not an HCP, but I used to work with people who were, in exactly this field. Never met this chap, to my knowledge.)

Clymene · 01/08/2022 09:20

Thank you so much for the link to that thread @WarriorN

I've been wracking my brains over the last few days trying to remember which org said that transitioning could cure autism and it was on that thread! GIRES made the claim

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/08/2022 09:24

Also, re Jack Turban - I read a very good thread on Twitter from prominent detransitioner ImWatson91 - see below for ThreadReader version. She wrote a long detailed letter expressing concern about his clinical practice as evidenced on his Twitter account to his training director and got no reply, so made this public last year. I believe it is on the public record that he got $15000 from a pharmaceutical company that manufactures puberty blockers. Apparently this is no big deal in the US, but I find it ethically dubious.

twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1296249041454534657?s=20&t=xX23RujqFsRSgYp2tcm1ZQ

t.co/hxkM0Gntj5

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 09:28

LizzieSiddal · 01/08/2022 08:37

The UK doctor is a Chief Medical Officer with pronouns in his bio who retweets typical TRA views.

Didn’t the Cass report state Ideology was over ruling evidence (or lack of it) at the Tavi and this should not happen at the new centres?

Yes, but looking at what we're up against, I can't help feeling pessimistic.

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 09:29

Good piece from Kathleen Stock today

unherd.com/2022/08/why-the-tavistock-had-to-fall/

Needmoresleep · 01/08/2022 10:10

notanicepersonapparently · 01/08/2022 08:20

As awful as the treatment of children has been, I wonder whether there is another issue which needs investigation. Does anyone know what evidence there might be that cross sex hormones are safe in the long term? Will there be a spate of breast cancer in adult MTF transitioners for example? If the NHS didn't follow up their child patients, have they followed up their adult patients?

This video from about 2017 is worth a look

Rene Jax was one the very first transitioners, fighting legal battles to be accepted by the LA police. 30 years later and her book is titled "Don't get on the plane."

Datun · 01/08/2022 11:13

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 09:29

Good piece from Kathleen Stock today

unherd.com/2022/08/why-the-tavistock-had-to-fall/

Fucking hell, that's even worse. It really is underlining the 'development' part of gender identity development service.

Using some airy fairy fucking philosophy to explain and rationalise gender dysphoria is so negligent it's difficult to believe. To then use extremely strong and harsh drugs that will sterilise the patient and render them incapable of sex, on the same fucking basis, is utterly criminal.

Jesus. Is this what Cass has unearthed? No wonder she's shutting it down.

(I'm sure philosophies have their place, but using them to uphold transgenderism isn't it).

Artichokeleaves · 01/08/2022 11:37

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 09:29

Good piece from Kathleen Stock today

unherd.com/2022/08/why-the-tavistock-had-to-fall/

Thank you for sharing.

'Special pleading' indeed has a large role to play in all this and needs pointing out and shutting down. No special standards, no special rules, no exemptions, no special treatment, the exact same gold standard applied to all without fear or favour is absolutely necessary to safeguard kids and vulnerable adults.

But she is pointing out here the crux of it: that this is from the roots upwards, a belief system rooted in 'feelings create reality, not objective facts'.

It has to be faced: the belief of feelings creating reality and facts being irrelevant is a known hallmark in psychology of personality disorder and mental instability and often the end point of significant ego instability and unresolved distress. It is not a positive thing or a healthy thing, or even a workable thing; when analysing relationships gone wrong, if one party is stuck in this way of thinking then the relationship is usually pretty much unsalvageable and the advice to the other party is usually in a nutshell you can't help, you're going to have to walk away.

It also has to be faced: to indulge this 'feelings create reality' belief requires two groups in society: those who get to have their feelings heard and dictate what their personal reality is, and those who get to shut up and provide and care for this special group. It embeds co dependency as something to be strived for.

And at that point, Major Tom is way beyond any lingering contact with ground control, and there isn't much to do except regretfully wave him goodbye.

Johnnysgirl · 01/08/2022 11:38

ScreamingMeMe · 01/08/2022 09:29

Good piece from Kathleen Stock today

unherd.com/2022/08/why-the-tavistock-had-to-fall/

Shock Shock Shock
We are in the business of making meaning... 🤯

Artichokeleaves · 01/08/2022 11:42

You really do have to wonder what productive, practical use a professional is to a distressed, confused child when that professional is busy disappearing up their own bottom on a blissful and self indulgent wave of philosophy and existentialism.