Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think

50 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/06/2021 11:44

An interesting article from a UK context.

womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 11:51

Yes! It was a brave woman in the 1970s who was asked to review a notorious book for Spare Rib newsletter who highlighted both the paedophilia and other ideas in it that would have far reaching consequences.

The infiltration and return has a very long history.

FlyPassed · 27/06/2021 19:23

Very interesting, thanks for sharing

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 19:38

I got some of the details wrong but I wasn't wholly offbeam.

Helen Joyce in Quillette:
quillette.com/2018/12/04/the-new-patriarchy-how-trans-radicalism-hurts-women-children-and-trans-people-themselves/

Extract:
"In 1979, Eileen Fairweather was working at Spare Rib, a radical-feminist magazine. She was young and new to journalism, but assigned to read Paedophilia: The Radical Case, in which Tom O’Carroll, later imprisoned for child-abuse, argued for lowering the age of consent to four. She recalls “anguished, earnest” discussions with feminist friends about what they should write about it. “I did draft something, arguing that the existing age of consent was not ‘patriarchal’, but protected children,” she says. “But I never even dared show it to anyone.” No-one back then realized the extent and brutality of child-abuse. And the pedophile movement had so thoroughly hijacked the gay movement that, if you said you were against “child sexual liberation”—as, outrageously, they put it—you were branded “anti-gay.” She says she sees “the same intimidation and paralysis of intelligence” with the transgender debate, with people terrified to express legitimate concerns about infiltration and safeguarding."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3804521-Helen-Joyce-taking-a-sabbatical-to-write-a-book-on-gender-ideology

stumbledin · 27/06/2021 19:55

I think it is older than that. No time to check dates, but if you google the PIE Liberty scandal you should get some dates.

And it was the fact that (or so it seemed in Leeds) PIE and trans activists were working together that many active Women's Liberationists were wary of trans activism. Many wanted to be "kind" but did not think trans women should be part of women's groups, but didn't think it would ever be a huge issue.

But it was what seemed to be the working link between PIE and trans activism that raised questions because there did not seem to be a natural link.

Spare Rib was not representative of local women's groups, and activism, although widely read.

stumbledin · 27/06/2021 19:57

Sorry Liberty at the time was called the National Council for Civil Liberaties and by the way, would not represent women's groups who wanted the legal confirmation that they were entitled to be women only!

The claimed it was against civil rights to take the position of only meeting with members of the same sex.

NonnyMouse1337 · 30/06/2021 14:04

Bump! Smile

OP posts:
Etorih · 30/06/2021 17:27

Thanks for sharing 👍

LangClegsInSpace · 30/06/2021 23:49

This too, from the Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972:

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us . (my bold)

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt (from page 164)

This was fifty years ago, published in a journal edition that was supposed to be about lesbians. Same shit, different century.

I've only recently come across this book. Just from a skim of the introduction it looks like there's a lot that could be unpicked here.

The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 01/07/2021 02:40

I've only recently come across this book. Just from a skim of the introduction it looks like there's a lot that could be unpicked here.

What an interesting collection. And, yes - admittedly predating some major legal achievements for women but there's the same belief that women must not be able to set our own boundaries and maintain them. It was never about acceptance but domination.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/07/2021 19:26

Just come across Dr Em's excellent historical essays published last year. This first in particular shows that transsexuals and transvestites saw themselves as part of the same group at the start of the 70's:

uncommongroundmedia.com/just-be-nice-feminism-part-i/

The whole series is well worth reading and should put to rest the myth that everyone got along fine in the olden days when it was just 'old school' transsexuals. Scroll down for Bev Jo in the comments too.

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-ii-beth-elliot-1972/

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iii-west-coast-lesbian-conference-1973/

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iv-the-gutter-dykes-1973/

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-v-beth-elliotts-response/

These last two show that lesbians have always been shat on at pride and drag queens joining in with TV and TS:

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-vi-pride-parade-1972/

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-vii-pride-parade-1973/

It's so exhausting reading these, the same shit has been going on for 50 years. Lesbians and feminists have been resisting it for 50 years. 'Be kind' has been screwing things up for 50 years.

We must never let history be forgotten again.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/07/2021 19:48

You can watch Jean O'Leary's speech at NY Pride 1973 here:

vimeo.com/331483480

It starts at about 5 minutes in but it's worth watching what came directly before and afterwards.

From Dr Em's article:

Jay reported that ‘In a mild statement, she [Jean O’Leary] attacked transvestites who imitate women for entertainment or profit. June, my lover, had the “audacity” to applaud, and a drag queen behind us took off his wig and hit her across the head with it. He called us dirty dykes and said he was a better woman than we’.

Jay stated how ‘Then he pulled down his panty hose and whipped out his cock (Translation: I’m still a man; I can rape you; I’ve got balls; dig my ultimate weapon). Obviously, he was playing both ends at once, and the sick creature was threatening us with pure womanhood and pure manhood rolled into one’.

Imasoulman · 01/07/2021 20:28

That was an interesting read, thank you for sharing it.

I would have been one of those transwomen (transexual as it was in the early eighties) head down trying not to be noticed in the ladies.
I agree there was definitely a tolerance if not acceptance then.

I wouldn't dream of doing that now, stonewall have a lot to answer for. They haven't done anyone any favours.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/07/2021 20:45

stonewall have a lot to answer for

They do and they don't. Did you read the whole article?

Throughout the history of trans rights campaigning there has never been a time when transsexuals and transvestites were not working together, involved in the same groups, pursuing the same aims, or at least intertwining their aims in mutually beneficial ways.

Reading Dr Em's essays and Come Together, the real mystery is how we were persuaded to collectively forget what has been going on since the early 70's, if not earlier, and instead accept a narrative that in the good old days there were 'old school transsexuals' and that the supposed honour system we had with them was nothing to do with TVs or drag queens.

Stonewall didn't invent the trans umbrella. They haven't done anything different from trans rights orgs for the past 50 years. They've just done it in plain sight.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/07/2021 21:03

So I think that in amongst all the horrendous wreckage they have caused, Stonewall have done us a small favour - they've shed a lot of light on what's going on (and has been going on for 50 years).

PFC were never this upfront, they fed us a line about a tiny few transsexuals who medically transitioned, so as not to frighten the horses. They served up Hayley Cropper as a representation of who they were campaigning for.

Imasoulman · 01/07/2021 21:04

@LangClegsInSpace

stonewall have a lot to answer for

They do and they don't. Did you read the whole article?

Throughout the history of trans rights campaigning there has never been a time when transsexuals and transvestites were not working together, involved in the same groups, pursuing the same aims, or at least intertwining their aims in mutually beneficial ways.

Reading Dr Em's essays and Come Together, the real mystery is how we were persuaded to collectively forget what has been going on since the early 70's, if not earlier, and instead accept a narrative that in the good old days there were 'old school transsexuals' and that the supposed honour system we had with them was nothing to do with TVs or drag queens.

Stonewall didn't invent the trans umbrella. They haven't done anything different from trans rights orgs for the past 50 years. They've just done it in plain sight.

Yes I agree with you in a way.
I can remember reaching out to the Beaumont society when I was younger simply because they were the only people I could find where I even remotely fitted in.
Not that I ever found them very helpful but it was nice not to feel alone.

These days there seems to me to be more of a Trans hierarchy than there was, but it's possible that I just didn't see it being young and naive.

I still blame stonewall for the situation we have today where any male bodied person can id as female and demand access and validation.
I really believe that has damaged the Trans cause to the point that there is no way back.

LangClegsInSpace · 01/07/2021 21:45

I still blame stonewall for the situation we have today where any male bodied person can id as female and demand access and validation.

Yes, I imagine you preferred it when only a few male bodied people could ID as female and demand access and validation and you were one of the lucky few.

But it's not in women's interests to allow any male bodied people to ID as female and demand access and validation. We were never asked, it makes many of us feel very uncomfortable and it makes us all less safe.

I really believe that has damaged the Trans cause to the point that there is no way back.

Yes, I understand that stonewall doing the umbrella thing in plain sight is bad for the 'trans cause'. That's not my cause though. This is a feminist forum, most of us are here to talk about women's rights.

NonnyMouse1337 · 02/07/2021 06:07

LangClegsInSpace quite depressing and enraging that this shite has been going on for so long, but I'm very grateful that Stonewall has exposed it all so publicly and we now know this was the endgame all along.

OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 15/07/2021 05:52

Bump! Smile

OP posts:
Keepemguessing · 15/07/2021 10:28

bump

Sophoclesthefox · 15/07/2021 10:39

Thanks for the bump, I managed to miss this before.

Reading with my eyebrows in my hairline.

NonnyMouse1337 · 06/08/2021 00:23

Always good to remind ourselves of the historical background. Smile

OP posts:
LangClegsInSpace · 06/08/2021 00:29

@Sophoclesthefox

Thanks for the bump, I managed to miss this before.

Reading with my eyebrows in my hairline.

My eyebrows haven't come down since about 2015.

'Educate yourself' they said ...

ixqik · 06/08/2021 03:17

A now retired rad fem academic said recently that this book is prophetic and from the late 90s/2000, she's seen how universities have been bowing to male to trans despite them being extremely abusive. transreads.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-20_5c91a4ba712fd_document26.pdf

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 06/08/2021 07:16

[quote ixqik]A now retired rad fem academic said recently that this book is prophetic and from the late 90s/2000, she's seen how universities have been bowing to male to trans despite them being extremely abusive. transreads.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-20_5c91a4ba712fd_document26.pdf[/quote]
OMG just read the introduction and that alone is staggering - totally with Pencils/LangClegs and Sophocles with the eyebrows!

Another one here who obediently “educated” myself…

ChattyLion · 06/08/2021 07:36

Thank you for this really important thread and all the resources. Eye opening.

Swipe left for the next trending thread