LOJ and monkeypox. Knows what a man is

[123Callie]

So LOJ has finally decided that men who have sex with men ARE more at risk of contracting monkeypox after all. And he wants them to know this so that they can all go and get vaccinated. Strangely, he is not using inclusive language at all. He only mentions men. There are transwomen at risk in exactly the same way but no mention of the women who sleep with men who sleep with men. Now that men are affected he is well aware that clear language is necessary for health campaigns.

Also, on another note, he doesn’t want men to stop having sex with multiple strangers. That’s fine despite the known risks. Can’t expect a man to take responsibility for his own health over servicing his raging libido.

A great response to actual substantive issues. What happened? Your spoofing ran out of road? You encountered someone who actually knows what’s going on in at risk communities?

You’re free to explain why you think my post is wrong if you like but everything in that post is entirely correct.

@ScaredAdopter Ok, so do you think having a penis is or is not a risk factor for suicide?

Or is it how one identifies?

Yes. There are a much smaller number of venues where men and women pay for admission in order to have sex with each other, than similar venues for gay men to have sex with each other. Places like saunas, sex clubs etc. I could name dozens of gay venues in London. I could name maybe two or three venues aimed at straight people.

To be clear we’re not talking about illicit brothels (which are not licensed sex venues) or sex shops or strip clubs (which are not generally places straight people go to actually have sex).

@ScaredAdopter To give an example- I don't have a penis and identity as a man. What is my suicide risk?

It's true though that men who have sex with men are more at risk!

@TeaKlaxon You're implying some behaviors that are very specific to gay men. Are you sure of your argument? Are you ok for these stereotypes to permeate public opinion?

No a penis is obviously not a risk factor for suicide. If it were then someone who loses their penis through some hypothetical accident would be at lower risk. That’s absurd.

as to the actual risk factors and why men are more at risk, that’s both off topic and not something I know enough about. Perhaps it is a biological thing that affects men and others assigned male at birth. I suspect it’s more likely a societal thing related to how society sees men and the barriers it places to them accessing support for mental health. If that’s the case then that may well affect some trans men in the same way - but it would be difficult to quantify.

So much waffle to not take ownership of your lack of responsibly towards your own because you were too fussed about getting the words right.
Men who have sex with men are currently at high risk of a contagious infection which can affect the general population. limiting sexual behaviors for a short period of time would be beneficial but lgba "said it the wrong way" or "with the wrong intentions" or whatever, so you focused on not limiting sexual behaviour because discrimination and now we have a growing cluster fuck.

Carry on... carry on.

@ScaredAdopter Thanks for that speculation on the source of the risk factors for men.

So if I have a penis but identify as a woman I would not be subject to these factors, and my suicide risk is that of any other woman?

There is no causation or correlation, we can safely exclude being born with a penis as a risk factor?

PMSL at “no vaginas”

Well so nice of you to educate everyone on everything Tea.
Absolutely fascinating.And do you know what, I need zero lectures on what it was like for gay men during the 80s thanks.

I’m hearing this to the tune of No Survivors by Nick Helm

So men likely to be affected are queueing up for the vaccination, of which there is a shortage, but LGBA were wrong in calling for a very temporary closure of sex venues (very high risk areas for monkey pox)?

So clear and precise language about the sex and sexual practices of who affected is needed to stop the spread of monkey pox, but not when women are at risk of cervical cancer (which kills, unlike monkey pox), or when pregnant or breastfeeding, or needing to talk about rape?

So it's OK to hound the LGBA for cantering gay, lesbian and bisexual people, even though them centring gay men allowed them to think quickly and act promptly with sensible suggestions to stop the spread of an infection that currently largely affects gay and bisexual men?

Such a load of hypocrisy and fuckery.

@TeaKlaxon You've implied that LGBA was rightly ridiculed for suggesting that gay men go without venues for sex with multiple strangers for a month, to combat the spread of monkey pox.

Is that correct, is that your position?

This thread is a classic on where the deliberate mangling of language leads! Thank you, tea!

Also on the deliberate mangling of sources of information.

A says men who have sex with men need to be careful
B says You Bigots!

Interval

B says men who have sex with men need to be careful.

C say A already said that!

Randomers say You bigots!

Yes, why didn’t LOJ say people who have sex with people are most affected, or gay people should be prioritized for vaccinations. Are men not people? It’s almost like words matter…

The whole reason "having a penis" came up is because the words man or male were deemed to be incorrect.

So people end up talking around that.

It is stupid, that is the point.

We can debate queer theory till the cows come home but from a public health pov, in terms of terminology that they use, MSM means any male who has sex with a male.

A trans woman having sex with males comes under this. They also seem to be very aware of their own sex.

Public health won't change the statement in any way. That's the category at risk.

They are risking their own health and community with these silly ideas.

LOJ is a hypocrite.

Absolutely this.

This thread has been the perfect example of why so many women - in particular - have such a big issue with the way language is being commandeered and used in new ways for the purposes of gender woo.

We have a real health crisis pending here which disproportionately affects "gay men". But no one actually knows who the actual fuck is intended to be covered by the description of "gay men"....

The obvious answer is

a) penis-havers who have sex with other penis-havers
b) trans women who have sex with gay penis-havers
c) trans men who have sex with gay penis-havers

The problem is that while we can all agree a) definitely come under the term of gay men, the people who fall into category b) will almost certainly refuse to acknowledge themselves as gay men even if they still have a penis and have sex with gay penis-havers. And as for c) they may identify as a gay man, but biologically they're not a gay man - gender vs biological sex. So when we say "gay man" what do we actually mean? A gay man based on gender identity? Or a gay man based on biology?

THIS is the problem with the language that's being adopted. We have a genuine health problem and the message needs to reach the right people but it's being mangled because no one knows what "gay man" is intended to cover any more.

There may well be plenty of trans women who are having sex with biological women or straight men, but there are many, many trans women who continue to have sex with gay men. MANY. Despite what Tea might say, trans women who have a penis aren't generally acceptable to the majority of lesbians, nor to straight men. And I speak from real life experience here. And likewise for trans men - if they're attracted to penis-havers who are gay, their potential pool of partners is limited. Gay penis-havers don't tend to want sex with trans men who have vaginas. Again, real life experience.

So if trans men don't have a similar risk, should they be included in the definition of "gay men" or not? And if trans women DO have the same risk as a gay penis-haver, then clearly they SHOULD be included in the definition of "gay men" - but clearly most would reject being described as a gay man because of their gender identity.

It's a fucking mess. And actually, it's not about "getting one up". You'd have to be pretty awful to be gloating about any kind of disease. This is about identifying exactly why the current use of language is so problematic - and there are going to be people out there who get very sick because they don't understand that the term "gay man" applies to them.

@TeaKlaxon you are showing exactly why clear language regarding sex and not gender is required.
Can you answer yes or no to the following?

1. A transwoman who has sex with other men is at risk.


2. A transwoman who has sex with other transwomen is at risk.

In both the above scenarios there is a common factor - the transwomen are male.

1. a transwoman who has sex with biological women is at a lower risk than the above.


2. A transman who has sex with biological males or females is also at a lower risk.

when we blur language and sex categories, peoples health is at risk.

I can't believe someone up thread is still with a straight face, trying to claim that vagina-havers who have sex with men are equally at risk of contracting monkey pox.
They simply aren't!

Women who identify as men simply aren't found in gay saunas, gay swinging events, gay sex parties, having sex with gay men. They just aren't. It's make-believe to think women with a manly gender are even welcome in the slightest in these places. They aren't! These men are into cock and that's the end of it!

Spoofing? What the fuck are you talking about?

I have tried to follow your logic but it just does not make sense.

If this is a disease spread by sexual contact between males then transwomen are in a higher risk category.

If this is a disease spread by use of saunas and sex clubs and genitals are irrelevant then how many people were put at risk by censuring and rubbishing the LGBA suggestion of closing said clubs?

You think I'm sneering- I'm actually fucking angry at the stupidity that places identity politics over public health.

"My argument was that having a penis is not why men are at higher risk of suicide. Having a penis is not why boys do worse in school. Having a penis is not why gay men are at higher risk of monkeypox. Those claiming it is are just wrong and ignorant."

Why call them "men" or "boys" if having a penis is not a definite, widely understood marker of identity? This is a global crisis and people with less elevated levels of ideological brainwashing than western darlings- ie the rest of the world need clear messaging. Take the Indian subcontinent, only those ignorant will deny the dominance of transwomen in the male sex trade and their highest risk. Granted that monkeypox can be transmitted by any intimate contact, but this particular health crisis at this particular time involves the indiscriminate use of penises.