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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tide turning

112 replies

dropthevipers · 21/07/2022 22:58

Given that it seems clear that gender woo is being called out all over the place, to the extent that 'be kind' and 'no debate' are the deadest of dead ducks, how long will it be before we can look back at this time and say'what the fuck was that about? '. Five years? Ten years? Never?

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 21/07/2022 23:14

Ten years at least. When teens like my daughter who roll their eyes and shrug their shoulders at the new religion become adults. And are no doubt perplexed at the next mods/rockers punks/hippies goths/poodle rockers divide.
And there will have been a slew of court cases around the world.

UWhatNow · 21/07/2022 23:51

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Etinoxaurus · 21/07/2022 23:54

That NHS ruling was depressing.
Refreshingly I've noticed fewer vawg workers with pronouns than general third sector workers. It’ll be interesting to see if/ as pp remove them.

LovinglifeAF · 21/07/2022 23:56

I think it’ll be a while when we still have teenage girls declaring themselves “trans”, people like us trying to stand up for women’s rights being called Terfs, but hopefully the tide is at least starting to turn.

LovinglifeAF · 21/07/2022 23:58

i believe that was wrong in law. Hopefully it will be appealed.

Newsernames · 21/07/2022 23:58

@Etinoxaurus we had our mandatory training last week and the midwife running it referred to “women and birthing people” throughout and WABP on all her slides. The IDVA just referred to women and only had women written on her slides. Difference was noticeable.

LovinglifeAF · 21/07/2022 23:58

The NHS decision I mean

Cattenberg · 22/07/2022 00:00

Maybe Truss or Sunak will clarify the Equalities Act and its exemptions. I really do hope so. Lots of companies and organisations seem confused and are flip-flopping desperately to try to avoid being sued.

FictionalCharacter · 22/07/2022 03:04

@UWhatNow I agree. One day a generation of women will realise what they allowed to happen, when years of Being Kind bites them in the bum and they twig what they’ve lost compared to the previous generation. Unfortunately a lot of damage will happen before the next backlash. Then it will be a new version of the battles in the 60s and 70s against overt sexism and discrimination, being called dolly birds and having our backsides slapped by strangers, being barred from a whole load of jobs and professions. This time the battle will be against everything that’s meant to be for women being stolen and colonised by men.

nepeta · 22/07/2022 03:19

I spot differences on Twitter in that there are many more gender-critical comments than in the past, though I don't know if they are less policed or actually now more frequent.

My guess is that it will take a long time for the tide to turn and much damage will happen before that point. Some of it to the bodies of the young people who later regret their transitioning, but also a lot to feminism, as we are currently seeing the return of sexist gender roles and norms (even short hair on women is now nonbinary or trans) and as we are losing many of the legal protections which are based on sex. Misogyny is more visible than it has been for several decades.

But on the other side, real feminism seems to be rising, and women in all sorts of countries are waking up. So who knows? Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised and rationality returns sooner rather than later.

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2022 05:41

I think that part of the problem here is globalisation and whats happening in the US, Canada and NZ.

Social media is largely US led and they are in the process of having a full on cultural war over women's rights and diversity in general. Plus its controlled by giantic health corporation with a vested long term interest which will seek to protect itself from legal challenge.

The significant part here is control of the supreme court though.

What I think will happen is the court will rule that states have the right to make rules on all sorts at an individual level. This will cause more authoritarianism in both blue and red states, which is untenable in terms of staying united as a country with one government and leader...

Control of english language social media is really important in this context. The Elon Musk v Twitter debacle is highly relevant to this. I've never thought Musk was serious about buying twitter. I think he wants control and power and in someways its more useful to him, to mess twitter about and disrupt internally whilst making a point about free speech (who i dont think Musk really believes in. Musk believes in Musks ego).

In this sense what we do in the uk in legal terms will remain somewhat marginalised for sometime.

Even if we come to our senses, we will have to endure the political and legal meltdown in countries that have taken it further already. This is problematic because of how tribal and entrenched us politics along religious grounds has become. Even if we legally put sex and gender back into their boxes in terms of definition, how do we control this on a global social media platform? We cannot block all thoughts and opinions from the US.

There isn't a sane way out for the US. Its one catastrophic meltdown that has decades to play out in court particularly because big pharma and healthcare have a lot of money riding on exploitation.

Its more akin to the prescription drugs scandal that has led to addiction and then onto illegal drug taking because culturally no one says no to the healthcare companies. Or challenges to the tobacco companies that took decades.

In terms of politics within the uk, I think it is slowly coming to a head and sanity will prevail here much sooner than other places, with less of the extreme tribalism. Purely because we aren't a nation of religious nutcases versus pseudo-religious nutcases.

As more stuff plays out the general population who aren't invested emotionally will eyeroll more at the absurdity.

But there's going to be a continued background noise and influence from blue loons in the US.

Ultimately this is about authoritarianism versus liberalism and globalisation and the impact of social media on democracy freedoms and idea. We still have a long way to go in how that plays out and a lot of that will rest on political control of the courts, which politicians are compromised due to their ownership and investment in big pharma and capitalist oligarchical control of social media.

So not down to the regular person on the street and political consensus building...

It will eventually implode cos its doing harm, but the us is particularly slow in resolving its shit in this area.

StopStartStop · 22/07/2022 05:50

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This.

RoyalCorgi · 22/07/2022 09:06

I think about this a lot. Those of us who are involved in this have this constant sense of being in some kind of weird Alice-in-Wonderland situation where everyone else has adopted an absolutely insane belief and we keep asking ourselves when people are going to come to their senses. And it always feels as if it's going to happen any minute - every new victory, like govt depts pulling out of Stonewall, or the ruling in the Forstater case, or the change of heart by Fina, gives us fresh hope that we're nearing the end. Yet the end continues to recede, somehow, further into the distance.

It's hard to credit, but loads of people still believe this stuff. Forstater, Stonewall, the Cass Review haven't made a dent in their beliefs. They're still putting their pronouns in their signatures, they're still fundraising for Mermaids. I really think it's going to have to be something massive that wakes people up. But I don't know what that is.

JacquelinePot · 22/07/2022 09:13

What was the NHS thing? I'm here daily but think I've missed something

FetchezLaVache · 22/07/2022 09:20

I'm perhaps naively quietly optimistic that the house of cards will come crashing down sooner or later and I think the key to it is sport. Once you accept, as all but the staunchest of feelz types do, that there are in fact physical differences between women and men stemming from biology and that they are important, the rest of it unravels pretty bloody quickly IMO.

RocketPanda · 22/07/2022 09:24

I saw the aviation solicitor on GB News trying to distance and muddy the waters on who exactly are the ones being intimidated. The TRAs are reaping exactly what they sowed and it's all rotten.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 22/07/2022 09:37

JacquelinePot · 22/07/2022 09:13

What was the NHS thing? I'm here daily but think I've missed something

This one was pretty depressing. I hope the Trust appeals.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593138-transwoman-wins-employment-discrimination-case-against-nhs-for-being-treated-differently-from-women-in-changing-room

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/07/2022 09:42

We're nowhere near the end. Even if we were, it will take years to unpick and dislodge the affected policy, HR guidance etc.

NHS staff are being more cautious in public social media but they've not changed one jot. The same for HR in the Civil Service, leading companies and industries.

Look at what Allison Bailey's tribunal revealed about the mindset of some of our leading legal minds in the UK. What Maya Forstater's tribunal revealed about leading intellectuals in the global development space.

PearlClutch · 22/07/2022 10:01

RoyalCorgi · 22/07/2022 09:06

I think about this a lot. Those of us who are involved in this have this constant sense of being in some kind of weird Alice-in-Wonderland situation where everyone else has adopted an absolutely insane belief and we keep asking ourselves when people are going to come to their senses. And it always feels as if it's going to happen any minute - every new victory, like govt depts pulling out of Stonewall, or the ruling in the Forstater case, or the change of heart by Fina, gives us fresh hope that we're nearing the end. Yet the end continues to recede, somehow, further into the distance.

It's hard to credit, but loads of people still believe this stuff. Forstater, Stonewall, the Cass Review haven't made a dent in their beliefs. They're still putting their pronouns in their signatures, they're still fundraising for Mermaids. I really think it's going to have to be something massive that wakes people up. But I don't know what that is.

Don't imagine that showing evidence and rational arguments will be enough to demonstrate the risks, harms and fallacies within genderism. It's not about 'belief' and understanding, so much as performative compliance & social currency.

Some of this is a subculture, and that will self-limit, and fall out of fashion. Youth culture is already eyeing genderism as passe. Media is rapid, but slapdash and mercurial; government and the law work slowly, partially, bluntly and badly for the most part. The populace has little idea, huge chunks don't understand the issues at stake. Emotionally motivated arguments are largely impervious to reason, evidence or logic.

I'm most worried about the EHRC's recent suggestion that a belief in biological sex was 'controversial'. We have a moral equivalence that gives equal weight to the idea that sex is a spectrum and there are over 100 sexgenders - many including the Scottish govt apparently see no difference between sex and gender.

Hopefully the Cass report will push the NHS towards more rational, evidence-based stances, and better care and treatment for gender-dysphoria. Sport will probably develop robust rules because for some reason people really care about sport. Schools may get more practical about' gender incongruity'.

The police seem gleeful about their continued expansion of thought-crime powers and in no hurry to sort deeply ingrained structural misogyny. Higher Education seems lost in a morass of ridiculously abstract nonsense. Lawyers can argue the number of gender-neutral angels on the head of a pin endlessly to their personal enrichment. Politicians can pontificate, flip-flop, and score points on either side with little regard for the consequences of their actions. The MoJ know the issues but have effectively shrugged about the extra risks to women incarcerated with males, whatever the history of those males.

nauticant · 22/07/2022 10:04

I doubt the NHS will appeal the decision. It would mean challenging the transwoman and that would be easy to frame as being vindictive and transphobic.

What would the NHS gain from appealing? I don't see how they'd see any real benefit for them at all, but definite downsides.

I think the way forward would be for a co-worker to find a way to build a case around a flashing incident at work being swept under the carpet. I wouldn't envy anyone going down that route with its uncertainties, potentially nasty cross-examination, and possible impacts on livelihood.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/07/2022 10:28

I think the way forward would be for a co-worker to find a way to build a case around a flashing incident at work being swept under the carpet. I wouldn't envy anyone going down that route with its uncertainties, potentially nasty cross-examination, and possible impacts on livelihood.

I'd fund it to hear the arguments about a penis not being a penis in some contexts and to get the clash of intersecting rights into the open.

However, we've seen what a strain a tribunal has been for Maya Forstater and Allison Bailey. I can't think what it would be like for most people to have to discuss something even more striking like these circumstances and to have to sit calmly while being accused of bigotry, phobia, having unflattering comparisons made with Pol Pot etc.

Spiralle · 22/07/2022 10:33

However, we've seen what a strain a tribunal has been for Maya Forstater and Allison Bailey.

Even though Maya won her case she gets called a bigot etc more now than she ever did before.

lollylo · 22/07/2022 10:36

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They really, really aren't. Just keep having the debate and working with the nuances.

MercurialMonday · 22/07/2022 10:52

At least a decade - when DD1 peers gets into work place and realised how the world works and starts dealing with stressed of paying for their own stuff.

I think in background a lot of tolerance and good will is being constantly eroded as more and more people have to deal with situations or become aware.

Also depends on how gets power and what changes they make to our laws but generally think UK population is fairly sane - no discrimination but that doesn't mean eroding women's rights or child safeguarding.

In US it will take much much longer and that is an issue with social media.

Fenlandia · 22/07/2022 12:18

I share people's pessimism about Stonewall, Mermaids, the captured BeKiiind organisations and the Twitter wokebros telling women to sit down and shut up (and worse).

And yet...the recent YouGov survey, even with flaws in its definitions, showed large majorities against things like transwomen in sport, transwomen in changing rooms, medical treatments for kids. [As usual, no-one seems to give a fuck about transmen!] The more people see of single-sex spaces being turned into mixed-sex ones, blokes pushing into women's sport, poorly-evidenced medicine, etc, the less they like it, and can see quite clearly it's gone way beyond compassion for the tiny group of people with debilitating dysphoria.

Check out this thread by Matt Goodwin twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1549813447990312960

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