Tide turning

[dropthevipers]

Given that it seems clear that gender woo is being called out all over the place, to the extent that 'be kind' and 'no debate' are the deadest of dead ducks, how long will it be before we can look back at this time and say'what the fuck was that about? '. Five years? Ten years? Never?

There really isn't a rush to medically transition

Stonewall are telling nursery teachers to refer two year old children who play with the 'wrong' toys for their sex to gender clinics.

Obviously there have been and there will always be. There are extremists on both sides. I mean it is true that transpeople have been and still do get attacked and experience violence. That is clearly happening because people hate the fact that they exist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Well, I've never met anybody who is against existence of trans people, but there must be many of them about, if you believe trans activists.

What do you think, jgw?

Yes it's ridiculous. I agree. If you think I don't obese reread my entire post.

@DaughterofDawn Or they might get attacked because some men hate gender-non-conformity in other men, which is more likely. It's a form of gay-bashing.

These same men hate lesbians, but double - offense of gender non-conformity AND the crime of not making themselves available to men.

And even those men don't want them to not exist, they just want men and women to conform to the gender norms.

I am thinking that I have never known people before going round stressing that they do believe that a group of people have the right to exist, as though that would ever be in doubt.

Then you've clearly never opened a history book before. 😂 can we turn the pages to world war II? LOL. And no I don't grieved transactivists. I very much have a mind of my own which seems to be a rare thing these days. I refuse to let a political party think for me. I believe nuance is important.

@jgw1 it's weird how women defending themselves against consistent TRA crying that we don't want them to exist makes you question the women's motives.

See, if I accuse you of being a troll and you deny it, in your logic that should make me highly suspicious that you actually are.

Do you want to try again? Have you met anyone who doesn't want trans people to exist?

It those who are trans have a right to exist and a vanishingly small proportion of the population say otherwise, I do not understand why a poster needed to state that they thought trans people have the right to exist.

Yes I have. I have family members that think all trans people should detransition because they are an abomination against god. Interesting though you think I was talking about you or the women here specifically not wanting them to exist? Is that why you are getting so defensive? Because I didn't get that feeling from anyone in this group. 😏😑

Then again I know many folks on mumsnet are from the UK so maybe this is a cultural difference happening here. I'm from Texas to be clear but I now live in Canada.

Do you think they have no right to exist? Because I merely meant the wing nuts on the far reaches of the spectrum think that. I thought that much was obvious but must not be. I understand why you might get defensive as I'm sure you've been accused of this before simply for bring gender critical but I'm feeling a little defensive myself because I feel very much taken out of context and derailed.

I am very much not trolling. You have my promise here that I am speaking from the heart. But the entire point of my original comment was lost in translation so I suppose you can ignore it. I've clearly hit a nerve.

Hey @DaughterofDawn, I was trying to get a straight answer out of the other poster, who haunts this board sniping and snarking, without ever actually contributing to the discussion. Totally nothing to do with your post, and you're very welcome on this board, as a clearly genuine poster.

I think you're right, it may be UK vs US/Canada split, as I have not, once, encountered anyone saying that in UK. They may well exist, but I don't know any fundamental Christians and tend to avoid Neanderthal men.

Catholics that I know well are extremely 'live and let live', even, possibly surprisingly, on abortion and euthanasia.

*fundamentalist Christians

Oh okay. Thank you for explaining. Haha. I was so confused. 😂

@jgw1 You did not reply to my question.

Either start giving straight answers or admit you're just here to undermine genuine discussion.

I repeat, have you ever met anyone who doesn't want trans people to exist?

No, which is why I found it curious for a poster to announce that they thought trans people had a right to exist, they have since explained why they felt the need to.

Thanks @jgw1, I am happy that you have never met anyone saying trans people should not exist, quite rightly.

I'm glad you agree women on Mumsnet never, ever, stated that, as you've spent a considerable amount of time reading the discussions, so you would know.

I'm now confident that if you ever hear the oft-repeated slur (in real life or on Twitter) that GC women don't want trans people to exist, you will challenge it, with the same vigour that you display in challenging women here, daily.

Do I have your word?

I am delighted to hear that you think that trans men and women have an absolute right to exist, presumably without harassment or anyone telling them to change who they are and how they behave.

I am delighted to hear that you think that trans men and women have an absolute right to exist, presumably without harassment or anyone telling them to change who they are and how they behave.

I won't tell my father who is an evangelistic Christian that he doesn't exist, or tell him to drop his beliefs and tell him he should stop his happy clapping.
He does not like the fact that I am an atheist and won't go to church with him. As he is my Dad I will let him rant talk to me about his beliefs and sometimes things will get heated.
But he doesn't call me a ChristPhobe for not believing what he does and he doesn't cross boundaries (ie making me in charge of saying grace before dinner ).

Same thing goes with transgender ideology. Feel free to live your lives the way you live, but don't make me believe your beliefs. And don't force me to give up my boundaries as a woman and to stand firm when trying to erase women as a Sex.

I won't force you to raise your happy clappy hands in the air and so please don't ask me to say that males are women.

@jgw1 I agree with your total post, apart from the last word, so let me parse it, hopefully without losing the meaning: 'you think TMAW should exist without anyone telling them how they behave.'

I think they should behave within agreed societal conventions, just like everyone else. So when these conventions are repeatedly broken, despite loud protests by a proportion of that society, I object.

I believe there is such thing as a society, and we all must behave ourselves in ways that are legally and morally acceptable.

Do you disagree?

So long as so-called "transmen" and "transwomen" avoid telling the rest of us to change and how to behave we should all get along fine. By 'change and how to behave' I mean that women be left to use their single sex spaces and services and not have their boundaries violated against their consent by men who claim they are women and vice versa.

Totally agree @MaudeYoung, 'So long as so-called "transmen" and "transwomen" avoid telling the rest of us to change and how to behave we should all get along fine'

If there is a genuine change required in UK societal expectations and law, as there was in attitudes to homosexuality, abortion or equality rights legislation, it needs to be achieved through democratic means.

'No debate' is the opposite of democratic means, and Stonewall can go fuck themselves.

Just who the fuck do Stonewall think they are, telling us what we can and can't debate?

Glad to see another Labour MP speaking out (in reference to Stonewall's idiotic tweet). Does that make 3 of them now? Not quite "tide turning" but perhaps there will be a few more who are building the courage to say something.

twitter.com/FeryalClark/status/1551122802316558337

I think the whole 'you think trans women / men don't exist' is a very interesting argument.

Because of course they exist, we see them!! This whole debate is about them!! It's not about whether or not they exist, it's about whether or not we believe they are literally the sex they think they are. Which I don't.

As an alternate, its about whether or not I think the whole meaning of the word woman and the state of being a woman should be redefined away from the physical reality of our bodies designed to produce children and rather a more ephemeral concept that seems really difficult to define.

If all of a sudden the world was to declare, as one, that there is no such identity or state as transgender but you are perfectly free to dress how you want, call yourself what you want, wear make up and heels or a boiler suit, as an adult make whatever alterations you wish to your appearance and hormonal make up, but sex is very emphatically based in your physical bodies and you cannot change it, on the face of it I would not have a problem with that and would be willing to concede some other points on that basis.

I also think it is only a matter of time before some other, massive names speak up. Names just as big as jk Rowling.

Maybe waiting until the tides turn enough for them to speak, which I appreciate, jk has had a terrible time and no one wants the same!! But huge celebrities who have remained silent up until now, especially ones that may be affected by the ideology personally, are probably gender critical and just waiting for the right time.

Wait until the scales tip just enough for detransitioners to be applauded and celebrated and that will appeal to many who have fallen to this ideology for reasons other than crippling gender dysphoria.

And actually, I would not be surprised if jazz Jennings will be at the fore front of a wave of celebrity detransitioners. She has been very much under the influence of people around her - possibly with good intentions - but she is coming into her own agency, she will be leaving home and meeting different people, freerer to find herself on her own. This may also prove very lucrative, so let's see.....

You cannot biologically change sex . There I've said it !