Tide turning

[dropthevipers]

Given that it seems clear that gender woo is being called out all over the place, to the extent that 'be kind' and 'no debate' are the deadest of dead ducks, how long will it be before we can look back at this time and say'what the fuck was that about? '. Five years? Ten years? Never?

When you see a movement being pushed by elderly white males from the White House down, their school and college teachers and saturating mainstream teen-oriented media to the point that it ceases to be edgy and cool, teenagers are surely going to start asking questions about why mainstream society is so keen to make so many of them do this, and who profits?

Don't imagine that showing evidence and rational arguments will be enough to demonstrate the risks, harms and fallacies within genderism. It's not about 'belief' and understanding, so much as performative compliance & social currency.

I agree entirely - rational argument hasn't helped very much. It's just that one hopes that really extreme cases (young girls having double mastectomies, for example, or rapists being put in women's prisons, or child sex abusers identifying as trans women) might shock people into sense. However, that doesn't seem to have worked either.

So what needs to happen to change people's minds? The adherents of this ideology need to reach a point where it is no longer considered fashionable or socially admirable. The only thing I can think of is to raise awareness of what's going on amongst ordinary, decent people - the ones who don't normally pay much attention to political issues. You need those people to start feeling outraged, because only when you have a majority resisting this do you have hope of changing things in institutions such as universities, the NHS, police etc.

I'd say it's more likely that the fatal blow will come from trans becoming uncool among the young so that it splits back into young people exploring readily changeable identities like being gender non-conforming, being a Goth, etc, and a very small group having meaningful gender dysphoria. To me I think this will undermine the ideology more than it being fought to a standstill in the courts, or by continual challenging politicians to make them adopt evidence-based and reality-compliant positions.

Once gender is coded into law over sex, it becomes extremely difficult to fight. Individuals at the sharp end have to endure a long, costly, enormously stressful fight in court - who wants to get involved with that? A woman who's been raped in hospital? A young person who's been made sterile? A woman in prison? A rape victim who has suffered extra trauma and gaslighting from the service that's supposed to support her? A mother who's been dragged to court to try and clear her name?

On the whole, with some extraordinarily brave exceptions, these women want to try and heal and get on with their lives, which is utterly understandable.

Once something has become legislation it seems that there is an immense resistance to undoing that.

I suppose the GRA could be extensively reformed - or the EA could be clarified massively so that its made totally clear that sex and gender are not the same thing. We'd need the EHRC to really step up to the plate and I'm not quite sure they are strong enough to do that.

I guess once people start to be sued there may be some reversing. But I'm afraid I don't share much optimism for genderism being suddenly overturned any time soon. I'm sorry. Too many people are still too scared to talk about it, for a start.

Exactly, which it is in the GRA. We need a reverse 6 word amendment on that legislation to ensure it's clear for all you you can't actually change your bloody sex!

Yes. So I think that's over to HoC/HoL, isn't it?

I think it may only fall properly apart when the well-off families of the girls in the US who are being encouraged into cutting their breasts off and being sterilised realise that it hasn’t cured anything, but instead has caused a monstrous level of harm and no grandchildren.

Once the weight of those suing for negligence outweighs the profit, the whole thing will go into sharp reverse. I’d also suspect the scandal will cause a backlash against the entire industry, which will finally assess the evidence properly and realise that transitioning doesn’t actually work in any meaningful way, and it will become as rare as lobotomy currently is.

I hope, as a PP said, that the UK (and hopefully other European countries) will come back to reality without having to wait for those young women to grow up and wake up, but every time I think the tide is turning, I see that there’s another huge wave behind the one that’s receding. It’s horrifically embedded in places I wouldn’t have expected, like the police, the NHS and almost all political parties. We were asleep at the wheel when that happened. But we aren’t asleep any more.

Tides turn, that is what they do.
For a while they go out, then they come in again, followed by going back out.

I think women will never be able to stop fighting this.

Hopefully people are coming to their senses over sports.

I think I (unfortunately as damage is done) the huge damage caused to children will stop the medicalisation

When it comes to males wanting access to females only spaces however, I fear we will never not be under attack.

I would have thought that a possible accelerator of the demise of forced Gender Ideology compliance will come from the inability to get insurance coverage.

Once the lawsuits start really making a financial impact insurance companies will have to factor in the risks that are now starting to appear - medical negligence, discrimination, safeguarding failures.

Yes, up to an extent.

We also need a Stonewall public inquiry in UK, they don't stand up well when asked to explain themselves in court, as they sound insane.

By Goddess, that would well and truly turn the tide in this country

America is fucked.

Their leading word-usage resource, Merriam Webster, recently changed the definitions of male and female to "someone with a female gender identity" with gender identity being defined as "someone's internal sense of being either male or female".

I think it will take until detransitioners are so ubiquitous that they can't be ignored. It can take years for people to realise theyve made a mistake. Right now almost everyone knows of some teen or othee who is trans/NB-identifying, but one day almost everyone will know of someone who made changes they regret. I also totally believe it's only a matter of time before people like Jazz Jennings and Nicky Green detransition (or worse), and that will send the house of cards tumbling down

I think this could very well be it. The social contagion has become so prevalent that it may be the one thing that brings everything down.

The ultimate end to all this may well come from a number of contributory factors but I think this may well kick things off.

The other thing, at least in the UK, will be those in government realising where public opinion on this actually stands. The silent majority are only silent because of TRA aggression and threats and not because they truly buy into the silliness. I think that's starting to become obvious with recent polling. They are getting it, slowly.

Basically we're getting there imo, it's just a question of different groups understanding reality for different reasons.

Actually this is an excellent point. The TRAs are going to find it increasingly impossible to fight back and discredit those who have been there. Keira opened a lot of eyes I think, it will happen more often soon enough.

The defeat of Mordaunt has shown the ideology has lost grip on the right in politics. Big question is will they follow through to remove it from public sphere. A lot of Tory Mps don't care about the subject.

On the more liberal side a very long way to go. We need to look at this as if we are back in the 60s and institutions were dominated by an overt obvious bias towards male positions. Millions of women had to put up with years and years of sexist rubbish to break the barriers. Women's lib groups in the 70s often not that big locally but still present were vital in changing conversation and helping change.

Some brave women are openly organising off line. It is still risky though. When we have a small but dedicated group meeting regularly in every major town in the country then the tide will truly be turning.

As someone else said another aspect has to come from kids themselves. We need a reaction movement. It exists in that sensible kids avoid extremes, but they don't speak out, but those who actively oppose it are mostly right leaning. Young Tories are not going to stop this. What we need is a bunch of really pissed off teen girls esp lesbians on instagram and tiktok ready to tell their self righteous contemporaries to go to hell.

I am not hopeful to be honest. There doesn’t seem to be enough momentum to change Labour Party decision makers and if they are not convinced by the upcoming Cass report and sport and keeping single sex spaces, then it is rather tenuous. I think a lot has to happen that cannot be disputed or reversed in the next couple of years or it will go backwards.

Their leading word-usage resource, Merriam Webster, recently changed the definitions of male and female to "someone with a female gender identity" with gender identity being defined as "someone's internal sense of being either male or female".

By that definition "gender identity" should now be synonymous with "period pain" - that'll typically be when I personally experience an "internal sense" of being female ...

"Yeah, hi, I'm looking for some medication for my gender identity. No, no, no, why are you trying to put me on testosterone? Can you just give me some paracetamol, please?"

The dictionary was a strategy. They got there by persuading news organisations to alter their style guides. They then cited the style guides to the dictionaries as evidence of a change in meaning.

I think it will happen when so many detransitioners start coming out and gathering that they can no longer be hidden or suppressed. cores enough patents exist that say "we tried to stop this but the government said "shut up or we will send child protective services to your home and remove your parental rights." Or they say "we trusted and did everything we were told to do and all we did was add more problems to our child's already existing problems and now we feel bitter and betrayed."

So it might be a few years I suppose. Give it one or two decades.

There certainly seem to be a sense of things changing in the UK. Here in Canada it almost seems to be getting worse. But there are people all over who are appealed, people whose kids have been affected, and in the end they may represent something of a powder keg.

I do think that there is soon going to be more of an all-out battle on the health front as it becomes clearer what the effects of these interventions are.

But when you get right down to it, this is not really just a battle about gender ideology. It's a whole framework around authoritarian identity politics thinking. As long as the framework is in place it's not going to be done. I get a little frustrated at a laser focus on the gender part - I understand it, but as long as the academic freedom, media control, and identity thinking around race, sex, sexuality, or anything else remains in place, gender politics is just a natural extension of that.

I also totally believe it's only a matter of time before people like Jazz Jennings and Nicky Green detransition (or worse)

I don't think Jazz will detransition. Jazz's entire life, career, family relationships and identity is based upon being trans. Jazz's body has been irrevocably surgically altered to match a stated internal gender identity.

The cost of detransition would be so very, very high that I don't think Jazz would ever want to countenance the idea that transitioning was wrong. Everything Jazz has ever known, and derived comfort from, is predicated on the belief that they are trans.

Thanks @MangyInseam, I found the following really encapsulates my thoughts:

'But when you get right down to it, this is not really just a battle about gender ideology. It's a whole framework around authoritarian identity politics thinking. As long as the framework is in place it's not going to be done. I get a little frustrated at a laser focus on the gender part - I understand it, but as long as the academic freedom, media control, and identity thinking around race, sex, sexuality, or anything else remains in place, gender politics is just a natural extension of that.'

My first objection to this ideology was on the freedom of speech grounds, as growing up in a totalitarian state made me acutely sensitive to its inherent authoritarian ism. I know that others commented on that, eg Jess de Waal, who grew up in East Germany.

Perhaps the authoritarianism is in the left-wing parties ideological DNA (see USSR, Cuba, China, North Korea) and the right-wingers were not as wrong as commonly assumed?

One thing this whole debate has done, at least for me, is it challenged my lazy, 'nice' middle-class world-view, and made me more open to opposing opinions. For that, the TRAs have my gratitude.

I agree with getting caught up with the gender aspect. I'm very much against the idea of misgendering others or dead naming. I understand why people do it but I don't think it is sending the right message. I think some folks want trans people to stop existing completely which I don't think should be the goal or is even a realistic goal.

I personally am not against the existence of Transgender people. I am against a lot of ideas that have been getting pushed forcing others to transition their children and making it difficult to enforce sex based rights or to even talk about them.

There really isn't a rush to medically transition. There are plenty of trans adults that look very very much like their new gender and they did not take lupron or take hormones or do surgeries until they were in their mid 30's. So it's extremely pointless and stupid to push this on young teens that are still figuring out who they are. If they can't get a tattoo or a piercing at this age then why the f**k are we rushing them into sterilizing themselves? 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

Adults who choose to be trans simply existing are fine and I have zero issue with trans adults existance. They made that decision as an adult. They don't bother me.

As for sex based rights well while I don't mind a trans person who identifies as a woman giving me my pills I would certainly mind if they are doing something that requires touching me or seeing me naked especially if they are still intact. And I don't think anyone should be able to identify their way into my pants.

I personally am not against the existence of Transgender people

Surely there aren't actually people against the existence of other people?