Tide turning

[dropthevipers]

Given that it seems clear that gender woo is being called out all over the place, to the extent that 'be kind' and 'no debate' are the deadest of dead ducks, how long will it be before we can look back at this time and say'what the fuck was that about? '. Five years? Ten years? Never?

Well this was my point, which our plopper valiantly ignored.

This idea of "you think trans people don't have a right to exist" rather suggests there is some kind of accepted meaning to the term.

There isn't one that comes from activism, that I have ever seen, that is even slightly coherent, or which in any way explains why it needs to involve compelling people to use gender based pronouns or should involve any type of medical intervention. No one in this thread has managed to come up with any useful definition.

The only scientifically and medically based definition revolves around treatment of dysphoria.

Who knows?

And that’s what I mean when I say I don’t believe in ‘trans’ identities. It’s not that I don’t believe the people exist - there they are, and we can all see them. It’s that I don’t see that their claims have veracity or coherency. That’s not to say I dismiss the possibility that they do have those things and I just don’t get it, but I don’t get it.

Well the NHS seem to think it's ok to have a penis on a woman's ward so we're no where near sanity just yet. And chest feeding is the way forward in maternity wards too according to medical guidelines set out in the U.K. recently.

I simply will never understand how one can desire to be a man and simultaneously want to do the one thing men cannot do. Give birth.

I feel it's worth answering your question @jgw1 'Why on earth would I be trying to get screenshots?'

I would like to remind women reading and posting that there have been numerous occasions when Mumsnet posts were screenshot to Twitter for trans rights activists to discuss.

These discussions involved not an ounce of respect afforded to gender identity proponents on this board, to put it in polite terms.

So yes, jgw, TRAs monitor this board, very closely, and regularly post screenshots for their 'proof' we are all bigots.

Did you actually not know that? I find it quite hard to believe, please reassure me as soon as you can

Seems a strange thing to do, but each to their own. I am not on twitter so had no idea, that people would do that.

Anyway I expect if I posted here and then it was shared elsewhere I would be pleased that the post was gaining a wider audience and was generating further discussion.

Quite often the images are closely cropped to get rid of any context. e.g. "I find it hard to believe that the majority of trans people are harmful" somehow has the first seven letters cropped out with a caption saying "See! Look what MN are promoting". Or it's the middle tweet in a thread where they are relaying what someone else has said and it's attributed as their own views.

Links are obviously far better but I've barely seen a single plopper from Twitter able to engage civilly.

The NHS lost the trans woman in changing room case precisely because they did not protect single sex spaces. If they had excised their right under the EA to restrict the changing room to actual women, there would have been no issue. The problem arose from treating a man as a woman, and then not allowing him to get naked in a women's changing room, which presumably the women - in theory at least - were allowed to do.

So the lesson the NHS should draw is to protect single sex spaces, or they will get endless similar problems. Sadly, however, as an NHS worker, I can confirm that their policy-makers are fucking idiots, so unlikely to understand why they fucked up, and how to avoid a repeat.

There are definitely more detransitioners posting their stories and growing realisations about how they were let down on twitter. I expect that trend to continue as some of the young people from 5/10/15 years ago turn into mature adult and realise what they've lost.

I would like to remind women reading and posting that there have been numerous occasions when Mumsnet posts were screenshot to Twitter for trans rights activists to discuss.

It's not been that unusual for someone to make an outrageous comment, screenshot it, and post it elsewhere to exclaim, OMG MN, what a [as per a purported perspective]. However, for various technical reasons that wouldn't be apparent to anyone unless they're a MN user, we can tell that it's the "OMG" tweeter who was the person who posted that comment on MN. The tweeter never, of course, includes the link to the MN site so that anyone can see what other comments are there etc.

@jgw I describe myself as GC. I think that trans people's sense of their inner selves is no more or less worthy of respect than anyone's sense of their inner self. I do not believe transpeople need to be 'cured' any more than I need to be 'cured' of my personality.

To me we are all simply bodies, male or female, with individual personalities, which may or may not align with the stereotypes and societal expectations imposed upon them by the weight of centuries upon centuries of male dominance and female oppression. Our personalities do not make us male or female, men or women - our bodies do.

In some domains, the physical differences between male and female, and those centuries of male dominance justifies segregation of the sexes regardless of an individual's personality (or trans identity).

I believe there is a lot of work to be done on improving access, safety, dignity and privacy for all people. I absolutely reject the notion that women should cede their spaces for this to happen.