Tide turning

[dropthevipers]

Given that it seems clear that gender woo is being called out all over the place, to the extent that 'be kind' and 'no debate' are the deadest of dead ducks, how long will it be before we can look back at this time and say'what the fuck was that about? '. Five years? Ten years? Never?

And actually, I would not be surprised if jazz Jennings will be at the fore front of a wave of celebrity detransitioners. She has been very much under the influence of people around her - possibly with good intentions - but she is coming into her own agency, she will be leaving home and meeting different people, freerer to find herself on her own. This may also prove very lucrative, so let's see.....

What has been done to Jazz Jennings is an absolute tragedy, those who enabled it and enacted it should be facing criminal charges and lengthy spells behind bars.

I don't thing "trans people having the right to exist" is really the right formulation.

The question is, what is a trans person? Is it some sort of essentially different type of person?

I would argue no, it's a treatment pathway for certain medical issues. What you are really talking about is a gender dysphoric person. No one disputes that such people exist. But in an ideal world what we'd want to do is cure their dysphoria.

Then the question is whether the treatment pathway of transition, if we can't cure it, is effective, if it meets medical standards given the downsides that it involves, both physically and psychologically. That's the appropriate metric. And that's been controversial, even before the recent activism, some doctors and hospitals felt that the outcomes did not justify the risks.

Spinning that as "trans people shouldn't exist" is important to TRAs because the last thing they want is for it to be really looked at in a rigorously scientific or even medical way.

Are these widely held views among those who are gender critical?

I would argue no, it's a treatment pathway for certain medical issues. What you are really talking about is a gender dysphoric person. No one disputes that such people exist. But in an ideal world what we'd want to do is cure their dysphoria.

Every one of these people is a huge problem in a sane world.

@jgw1 why do you want to know?

Exactly what is it you disagree with, offer us an actual opinion, argue your point - that is the nature of debate, remember that word?

Oh noes, are these fascists trying to find a way to ease dysphoric people's suffering?

We, in your sane world, should encourage surgical solutions to psychological distress, without trying to find less invasive ones, or we're Nazis, is that right?

What I would like to know is whether the views expressed by the previous poster are widely held by those who are gender critical.

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?

@jgw1 as we've never seen a coherent description of what 'trans' is, we're all over the shop and don't have a unified position.

What's 'trans'?

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?
Hard to tell from your wording what specifically you mean, but if someone needs medical treatment for any reason then whether they are trans or not (which is increasingly hard to establish what that even means - going by Stonewall guidance I'm likely trans, but most TRAs who come here refuse to answer questions that would help me identify this more clearly) should have no bearing on whether they seek or are given it.
Obviously some illnesses cannot be "cured" so it's a bit simplistic to say "X has cancer and needs to be cured" regardless of their identity.

Not my wording, but that of a previous poster.

I find it interesting that you are comparing being trans to an illness. Is that a widely held view among those who are gender critical?

Plop plop plop.

Why do ploppers always use this tone that implies they're so clever and curious? And the rest of us are just boring cunty types? 😂

And yes, this.

For example is it a widely held view that if someone is trans they need to be cured?

Not my view. I think it’s a psychological issue to sincerely think you are or should have been born the opposite sex, and I think it’s often bound up with other psychological issues. However it’s not up to me what medical treatments other people accept.

But no, ‘misgendering’ isn’t denying the existence of any person. Every person exists. It’s just recognising the truth about their sex, and not believing in gendered entities.

Thank you that is reassuring @achillestoes. Do you have the impression that your view is widely held?

Fuck me, how do you expect private individuals to speak for a disparate group

do your own research and draw your own fucking conclusions

lazy

‘Thank you that is reassuring @achillestoes. Do you have the impression that your view is widely held?’

Widely but not ubiquitously.

@jgw1
I find it interesting that you are comparing being trans to an illness. Is that a widely held view among those who are gender critical?

Ah - you have somehow managed to interpret the exact opposite of what I meant. Have another read.

I suspect this is the problem with trying to address statements that are vague to the point of meaningless such as 'trans people need to be cured'.

I'll try to summarise my point again. Any person who is ill of any illness - a cold, depression, broken leg - as was implied by your use of the word 'cured' - should be able to seek treatment for that illness. Their gender identity - whether they are trans or not - should not affect whether they seek a cure for any illness that they have.

I do not equate trans with being ill, if that was your actual question - unless the person also has an illness. I don't compare 'trans' with anything, because what the word 'trans' means is basically indefinable. You may have well asked me 'do you think if someone supports Graviwgf they need to be cured'? My answer - yes, if they are ill.

It would help if you could articulate your meaning a bit more clearly in your posts, and define terms if people say they are not clear on what you mean.
What do you think 'trans' is, for example?

Others have pointed me to definitions saying it's when a person's sex (male or female) doesn't match their gender (anything) but does not clearly state what a sex 'matching' a gender is. One is a biological reality, the other is a feeling. How can a feeling match or not match a body? What would a matching sex and gender look like, for example?

I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.

Honestly the ploppers are so boring and so obvious. I tend to assume they're very young.

I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.

Right, but not all trans people fall under that. I consider myself to be genderless, which apparently is some kind of way to be trans, but I don't think my body is "wrong". I think sex role stereotypes are wrong.

So many threads/posts on FWR are operating under countless definitions of 'trans'. Someone who wants to be the opposite sex? Sure. Someone with gender dysphoria? OK. Someone who feels they are neither particularly masculine or feminine? Why not...?

Ah - you have somehow managed to interpret the exact opposite of what I meant. Have another read.

@LaughingPriest Apologies I had indeed misread your post.

‘I mean, if a person feels their body is wrong, that is a kind of dysphoria. Pretty much by definition.’

But having bodily dysphoria doesn’t make you ‘trans’, does it?

Why on earth would I be trying to get screenshots?