Is CIS a legal term?

[purpleboy]

So I had a conversation with a friend the other day who is adamant Cis is an accurate descriptor of women and that it is written into law?
I asked where but she couldn't specify just stating it's a factual term (referencing women) that is legally recognized.
I've had a look and can't seem to find anything to back this up, but I know the wise women here will know if there is any truth to this.
Thanks in advance.

What was so offensive about Artichokes post? Nothing said in it is untrue or remotely nasty.

Difficult to do when their offensive views are factual though. hence the "humans cant change sex" which should be the feminist boards' motto.

So you agree that 'human's can't change sex' is a fact? OK.
But you don't think we should say this is a fact because some people find it offensive. Is that correct?

So how far are you prepared to go in order not to hurt someone's feelings?
If someone tells you humans can change sex do you let it go and say nothing?
If someone tells you humans can change sex do you agree that they can?
If someone tells you they have changed sex do you agree with them that they have?
Do you expect other people to agree that humans can change sex?

And if someone said that humans cannot change sex what would you do?
Say nothing?
Disagree with them (even though you have said yourself that this is a fact)?
Report them?

In some people's eyes, I'm sure I have. I'm not sure I follow your logic.

"None of us get to decide what people think of us inside their heads" - I assume you've never used any expression on here which dismisses trans people's identity then?"

Why would it mean anything either way? I've just asserted people's complete and utter sovereignty over their thoughts. I am wholly and completely opposed to thought crime. That means I do get to genuinely and 100% sincerely dismiss people's identities in my head.

And guess what, I don't get to make "trans people" like me either. Because it goes both ways. Stop trying to dictate people's thoughts and perceptions.

What I do have a right to do, is to tell people to sod off when they dare to inform me that if I'm not a Protestant, I must be a Catholic, or that I am a heretic. I am not compelled to meekly accept what you tell me about me without answering back.

I don't go around telling trans people that they're "cis", so they and their "allies" should be able to replicate this feat. I avoid referring to trans people I know by the pronouns they dislike, and that is FAR more effort than simply not telling random feminists that they're "cis". And yet, trans activists cannot do it!

I'm a woman, not a doormat. If trans activists can't manage a simple smidgen of reciprocation and tolerance for people who don't share their beliefs, then they're asking me to subjugate myself to their faith. To say NOTHING of how public institutions like hospitals are drafting policies around gender identity theory, and expecting us all to accept males in women's wards. Stop imposing these beliefs on everyone else.

The answer is no. I don't accept it when people from more traditional religions treat me like shit, and I'm not going to change that for this one.

I'd trans activists can't manage a simple smidgen of reciprocation and tolerance for people who don't share their beliefs, then they're asking me to subjugate myself to their faith. To say NOTHING of how public institutions like hospitals are drafting policies around gender identity theory, and expecting us all to accept males in women's wards. Stop imposing these beliefs on everyone else.

The answer is no. I don't accept it when people from more traditional religions treat me like shit, and I'm not going to change that for this one.

Well said, Purgatory. Where is any reciprocation at all? Thankfully, the decision promulgated in Maya's EAT and recent full merits hearing will hopefully put a stop to some of this nonsense soon. Whether or not TRAs like it or not, their views are not privileged above those of all others.

And in fact certain people are getting people sacked from their jobs, have their livelihood stopped, arrested, proposing friends and family members should dob people into the police for wrong think and more

Does it work both ways here?

Straight women are women, as are gay women and bisexual women.

I’ll let you figure out why that is not comparable to women and "trans women".

My transman friend is upset by the fact that people say things that eradicate his identity
What sort of things?

Can I be so bold as to suggest that if people "saying things" can eradicate something, then that something wasn't actually real to begin with?
Words can be powerful, but they're not actually magic.
You can't talk something out of existence.

@beautyisthefaceisee

So your friend will be supported by most people on here.
For most people the issue isn't TMATM or TWATW
but trans women are women and trans men are men.

Exactly @FrippEnos .

The Christian equivalence is interesting. I'm a Christian and have been around MN for years, on many threads where I've been mocked and derided about my imaginary skyfairy friend etc etc, told I must be of low intelligence. My very identity has been under attack, because my identity is wrapped up with my faith.

Now I have also had great interactions with people who don't believe - respectful, even funny (I remember @ErrolTheDragon from this thread for some of these.) I've been gently challenged and asked to provide evidence for any claims I wish to make. All fair enough.

Now I could easily say that these interactions - both unthoughtful attacks and thoughtful, educated challenges - are attacks on my identity and they erode it. I could then say that everyone should just stop making any negative comments at all about my faith - but more than that, they should start to make my faith claims for themselves. They should recite the Nicene Creed and mean every word, because if they don't do that it's mean to me and erodes my identity.

I could ask for those things. I could try to make sure that if people do not do these things they are torn down as heretics - and this happened in the past, to every thoughtful Christian's dismay, just as we are dismayed at some of the stuff happening in the US under the Christian right (ugh).

So I see the equivalence, because here we are seeing the formation of a new religion, a new forced creed, a new witch-hunt, and feminists are the big nasty witches who do not comply.

I do not want anyone to forcibly believe my faith. It goes against everything I believe. I do not want anyone to have to partake in anything to do with my faith if they do not want to (and yes, I've observed all the issues with faith schools, HOL etc.) I believe in free speech and freedom of choice for belief, and what we have here is a system that forces people to bend the knee to a belief system they don't believe in. For me, then , cis is not just a word, but the tip of an iceberg.

And I will not comply.

I am sorry your friend feels sad when he hears those words. I feel sad when people mock my faith too. But I can take it because other people's opinions do not shake that faith.

Yes, you do. with the "humans cant change sex" debacle what you are effectively saying is trans isn't a thing, and you know it.

No we are saying people can't change their sex. Changing one's gender identity is completely different as this is how you might perceive yourself. Much like one's national identity can differ from one's ethnicity. I identify as a Scot being born and brought up in Scotland but a genealogist would say I am not ethnically Scottish. Trans people exist and no one is denying this, however, they haven't changed their sex.

I think if we could agree a climb down on the conflation of sex/gender, protect some single sex spaces and let everybody choose their own descriptors and whether they wanted to stipulate pronouns or not, a lot if the rest would calm down.

Well, of course it would. In this senerio, you've given away lots of single sex spaces, leaving us with 'some'.

What exactly do women and girls get out of all of this? Apart from placating a few men for the time being.

As Dorothy Parker famously said of her failure to meet a deadline, "strike that, reverse it".

Transwomen are men. Transmen are women. Is it really that difficult to grasp?

I imagine a sob story of a pile on has now been told. Where those evil transphobes on MN just trotted out their right wing dog whistles about "you can't change sex" and it not being "safe" for the true believer.

I'm a gender atheist so cis isn't part of my belief system.

It's not law as we have a secular society.

Cis = construction industry scheme.

It's a bit like PAYE for subcontractors in the construction industry.

It may be relevant to some women but not all.

Some examples.

1. My own children. I often told them (and others) the truth about themselves when they were mistaken about the world and their place in it. Often it caused them pain and distress. They got over it. That's part of a parent's job.

1. I had a friend/colleague with a bad drinking problem. She used to ring me up late at night. "You're drunk," I'd say. "No I'm not," she'd reply, "It's really hurtful for you to say that." I knew I was being hurtful. Was I wrong to tell her the truth? Now she's happy I did. (She still has a drink problem. Always will.)

1. Another friend with mental health issues, exacerbated though not caused by psychotropic recreational drugs. I explained to him on more than one occasion that, no, he was not an alien sent from another planet. "But you're attacking my truth!" Sure enough. I was. Telling him the truth hurt. He was my friend, though. Friends tell each other the truth, when push comes to shove.

1. As a union rep, I sometimes had to explain to colleagues I was representing against management that - although of course I was on the colleague's side - actually management was right and they weren't really pulling their weight in some aspect of their job, so we needed to deal with this. Always hard to accept truth like that, painful indeed. But, again, necessary in some circumstances? I think so.

... There are lots of other possible scenarios.

"Does my bum look big in this?" - "Erh, well ..."

"I'm more than pulling my weight in this relationship."- "Well, actually ..."

"I'm the reincarnation of a Princess of Egypt ..." (Response left as an exercise.)

It's true some soi-disant trans people are psychologically delicate and easily hurt. Perhaps, just perhaps, it might, ceteris paribus as it were, be better for them if we were to tiptoe around the truth about human biology etc.

But other things are determinedly not equal: some self-styled trans people are vicious narcissists. And of course there are grades in between. And, moreover, societal mores and legal matters also depend on the 'truth vs lies' discourse here.

So, all-in-all, Tell the truth and shame the devil! applies, I'm afraid. Sorry about your trans friend. But, well, she is by no means as unique as you claimed. Does that help? Maybe?

I don't believe there is a god. I fully accept that others do.

Equivlent

I'm not trans. I fully accept that others are.

The literal equivalent would be me saying "there is no such thing as Christians".

Those two examples are not equivalent though.

The first is about beliefs. People believe all kinds of things, some real, some demonstrably false.

”I’m not trans” is not a statement about belief, it’s a statement of a fact, or would be, if we had a coherent definition of trans.

If we assume “trans” means “person who is undergoing medical treatment to make them appear more like the opposite sex” then “I am not trans” is a factual statement that you are not undergoing that treatment.

My problem is with the newly introduced idea that “trans” is some kind of unique internal personality and is not related to any physical act. I don’t believe there is some unique personality type that should override sex when it comes to rights and laws.

I’m not sure how “People can’t change sex” relates to “There is no such thing as Christians” though. One is a statement of fact, one is a straightforward falsehood.

Does your transman friend believe people can change sex? If so, your friend has been sold a lie. Those pointing out that it is a lie are not to blame. Those who told the lie are.

Transitioning physically might arguably be a treatment that helps some people (though the evidence for it is poor). Lying to people that they can change sex and leaving them with the fallout when they discover it’s not true is not a pathway that helps anyone, and indeed is extremely destructive.

@VestofAbsurdity il decide what I find offensive, thanks

Indeed you can decide to be offended by what Artichoke wrote, however, anyone looking at that post objectively would find nothing remotely nasty or offensive in it.

I did ask what it was about the post you considered so terrible, care to enlighten me?

I don't believe there is a god. I fully accept that others do.

Equivlent

I'm not trans. I fully accept that others are.

The literal equivalent would be me saying "there is no such thing as Christians".

Religions aren't forcing us to believe what they do.

Cis is dogma that I don't subscribe to.

The flags are all part of the dogma, essentially a type of modern religious symbolism. I say type as flags in themselves and banners are complex.

I can easily afford respect to the ideology and the individuals if it weren't for the enforcement of acceptance and pictures of and actual violent threats.

We had what I later realised were trans flag ice cream cones in an ice cream parlour recently. Unfortunately the image of a trans baseball bat held in threatening ways was too similar for me to fancy one.

Kids had no clue and liked the white chocolate and pink and blue sherbet stripes.

Nah