My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

[Pronoundisquiet]

My two sons aged 10 and 6 go to a religion school every Saturday. Occasionally they have an outside visit from a youth group affiliated with our religion.
My 10 year old told me that today the youth group leader visited the class. They did a session on their identity and went round the room introducing themselves, saying their name, if they were a boy or a girl, what their pronouns were and what their favourite ice cream was.

Apparently the last time they visited they did the same.

10 year old answered the question, 6 year old apparently just said “I am a boy”

The religion school is run by volunteers not affiliated to the youth group so I want to be mindful what I say. I also want to come up with a more reasoned argument as to why asking 6 year old their pronouns is fucking nonsense other than “this is fucking nonsense”
Can anyone help please?

Another option would be just to be quiet to keep the peace, and keep the kids off when the youth group leader comes in, and not engage with any of the external
youth group stuff - they run sleepovers/summer camps etc.

At least they will be well grounded in that grammar term, which I didn't learn until I was forty.

Sorry to be flippant

Regardless of any of your personal views, are you a boy or a girl is a fairly easy question for a 6 year old.

My 4 year old girl had very short hair and was often referred to as a boy by other kids and sometimes adults and she didn't like it. Could quite easily tell people no, she was a girl.
I knew a little boy called Lou who was often assumed to be a girl called Louise, he also didn't like that and would get upset when he got grouped with all the girls or other children asked if he was a girl.

There isn't much clear difference in the appearance of 0-8 year old boys and girls, hair isn't always a giveaway nor is clothes. Just practically it is helpful, stops people assuming as it is not always obvious.

Obviously it would be better if it didn't matter and nobody assumed anything and everyone understood that wearing a dinosaur jumper doesnt mean you are a boy, but while that isnt the case right now, I can't see the harm in clarifying, for lots of kids its the same as being asked their name or age etc.

I would approach it gently but I certainly wouldn't want my kids to be taught that having to state pronouns is a reasonable thing to do because of all the sexist rubbish that goes with that idea.

Obviously it would be better if it didn't matter and nobody assumed anything and everyone understood that wearing a dinosaur jumper doesnt mean you are a boy, but while that isnt the case right now, I can't see the harm in clarifying, for lots of kids its the same as being asked their name or age etc.

Give me strength. How on earth did we manage before the era of pronouns? Also why are they asking the kids to say whether they are boys or girls, are they going to treat them differently? This is nonsense, all they need are their names and if they are used to working with children I am pretty sure they'll know what sex they are.

I would be asking why 6 year olds were being asked whether they were a boy or girl, they are children, and their sex should not be relevant to their attendance at a church youth group. Why did the organisers need to know? Were they proposing to treat them differently on the basis of their answer?

I would simply ask "why are you asking the children this question"?

The harm comes from trying to normalise gender identity as a concept, casting doubt on the use of the words "boy" and "girl" to mean sex.

If this was an initiative to ensure children were correctly sexed (perhaps due to success oin lessening the grip of gendered expectations on children meaning it was not always easy to tell) then I might agree with that this would be a good idea in the right circumstances. But the likelihood is that these youth leaders are not trying to ensure children are not missexed, but rather they are seeking to normalise the use of sex based words to describe gender identity, (i.e. indoctrinate them into gender ideology) and to disassociate sex from the words we need to describe it.

Thats kind of exactly what I said though, my daughter has an obviously female name and still was called a boy by teachers and other children because she had short hair so they didn't know what sex she was, or they thought they knew but they got it wrong, so many times.
Teachers who were obviously used to working with children but still made assumptions based on her hair.
She was put on the boys team in rounders, given the 'boys' party bag at a whole class party, asked why she had a girls name and told she was in the wrong toilets.
Ideally there wouldnt be a boys team for reception rounders or seperate party bags for boys but there still are and people still treated her differently.

Same for the boy called Lou, they had his name, and saw him and it still didn't tell them that he was a boy, because he was 4 and was waering the unisex nursery uniform so they still got it wrong, teachers and children.

In the 'era before pronouns' people did still get it wrong and had to keep telling people that they were a girl or a boy, that isn't new. It happened when I was growing up, girls who wore shorts were told they looked like boys, it happened to my best friend all the time.
The difference is now kids are being asked before people assume.

What about the rest of the girls with short hair, were they all put in the boys' team as well? Moreover, why had the teachers not been given any information on their new classes?

There were no other girls with hair as short as my daughters, some with chin length hair, most had it long enough to be tied back. She was the only girl put on the boys team.

The teacher who grouped them just handed all the boys and my daughter red bibs to wear. He wasn't checking them off a register, he was just going off appearance, he read her as a boy so put her on the boys team.
She was only 4 so was just grumpy that she didn't get to line up (to bat) with her friemds, who were all girls.

This issue would have been solved by either your daughter or you simply telling the teacher she is a girl. No need for every single

I’d ask them why the children are asked those questions and go from there.

Posted too soon! No need for every single child to declare their pronouns.
And actually more simple to ask everyone if they are a boy or girl rather than asking their pronouns

Sounds familiar. Is it Reform Judaism by any chance?

Im just totally fed up with the whole pronouns thing.

We live in such a narcissistic society that its now become the norm to advertise your pronouns wearing badges .... when to be honest I couldn't give a flying fart what someones pronouns are .

Its become ridiculous.

I was often mistaken for a boy, short hair, hand me down clothes of all sorts but often oversized because I was very small.
Sometimes I was told quite forcefully 'this is the ladies'; as if I shouldn't be in there.
I just said, "I'm a girl", no drama, no trauma, no literal violence; it was annoying sometimes but ho hum lots of things are annoying and people make assumptions and mistakes.
I was a girl with short hair.
I'm now a woman with shortish hair, wear docs and jeans most of the time but unfortunately nobody mistakes me for a man and gives me a promotion and a payrise.
It's probably the massive tits that gives it away, or the fact they I'm five foot one, who would know without asking my pronouns?
Which by the way are fuck/off

I was misgendered as a child.

We went on a Santa train with my grandma. At the time I had short hair and my brother had long blond beautiful curly hair.

Due to our appearance, Santa gave my brother the ‘girls’ toy as a gift. A crappy pink cheap horrible plastic handbag. I was given the ‘boys’ toy, a really cool car that shot off when you pressed the back.

I was fucking delighted but our Grandma made us swop toys as we had the ‘wrong’ ones.

I got home and cried to my mum about the unfairness of the whole situation. My mum put the crappy plastic handbag in the bin, and told us we were to share the cool car.

Maybe it’s never too early to be teaching your kinds about sexual and gender stereotypes???

You may not care what someone else's pronouns are, but they care about their own pronouns. If adjusting your use of pronouns helps someone else feel a little more included in the world, isn't that a good thing to come from a simple act?

I wouldn't blame the leaders in your group, but I would make sure they know it's going on and tell them your kids won't be there again when this outside group visits.

If they ask why say that it assumes the kids accept an ideology you think is false and also dangerous.

I would not be happy with this. I'd be talking to them about both issues: asking questions re pronouns, putting dd in the wrong group.

I wonder what they read into the ice cream flavours.

I would absolutely raise it, because if you don’t speak up for your children who will? This external youth group leader is working to normalise the practice of pronoun declarations for children far too young to be exposed to this nonsense. It does not serve the children, so whose agenda does it serve?

You may not care what someone else's pronouns are, but they care about their own pronouns. If adjusting your use of pronouns helps someone else feel a little more included in the world, isn't that a good thing to come from a simple act?

Should we be asking everyone what their religion is, because a lot of people care about their own religious beliefs?
And then if one person in a group is religious, everyone can say a prayer together and they will feel more included in the world.