My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

[Pronoundisquiet]

My two sons aged 10 and 6 go to a religion school every Saturday. Occasionally they have an outside visit from a youth group affiliated with our religion.
My 10 year old told me that today the youth group leader visited the class. They did a session on their identity and went round the room introducing themselves, saying their name, if they were a boy or a girl, what their pronouns were and what their favourite ice cream was.

Apparently the last time they visited they did the same.

10 year old answered the question, 6 year old apparently just said “I am a boy”

The religion school is run by volunteers not affiliated to the youth group so I want to be mindful what I say. I also want to come up with a more reasoned argument as to why asking 6 year old their pronouns is fucking nonsense other than “this is fucking nonsense”
Can anyone help please?

For starters I'd write a formal complaint/request to the religious school, copying in any governors or similar (however it works), asking for their reasons in writing for putting these questions to attendees.

To me, using preferred pronouns is about including others and making their decisions around identity feel validated

whydo we have to validate people?

We don't exist to validate the lives of others. I'd not be hanging around with such needy people tbh.

What do people actually mean when they say ‘validate’ - validate as what? Human? Special? Ooooo edgy?

6 year old apparently just said “I am a boy”

Colleague at work has complained his 5 year old has been told he's not allowed to say he's a boy.

Does the religion school know about this?
If so, why are they encouraging it? If not, perhaps they would stop using this youth group.

Definitely keep your children away.

It is a struggle for young children to understand the world. They like certainty. Trying to make them see ambiguity about their sex where is none is abusive.

Keep.so called adults like the youth workers out of their lives.

You see the pushback is because it is lunacy.

I never hear what pronouns people use about me - they are only ever used in my absence. So why I would feel the need to robustly pre-police what happens in my absence escapes me. It's no disservice to me if people referring to me in my absence do so in a manner that means they all know who they are referring to!

ow vocal members would feel if their children decided that they had been misgendered at birth and asked to use alternative pronouns That's actually quite easy. Use whatever name you chose darling, gender stereotyping is the very devil. But do remember that human beings cannot actually change sex so, whilst you may prefer a feminine name and clothing, you are still a boy, a boy doing his own thing - which is good [or girl, obviously]

TO me using preferred pronouns is about lying, disregarding science and setting up a young trans person for a terrifying social experience - where adults lie to them, deny material reality and confuse them beyond all common sense - see various desisters in the news recently.

I have no idea why ANY / EVERY parent doesn't push back and demand a more honest discussion with young people exploring their sexuality and identity. I have no idea why bimbling along with trans ideology is not seen for what it is - seriously damaging to so many!

What is the deal with the ice cream?

They trying to bribe the kids?

StanleyBostitch
I was born in England but live in another country. I'm honestly gobsmacked at the intolerance on this website for those who do not fit into the standard gender mould. Where I live we're vastly more accepting of gender fluidity, and I wouldn't say we're an enormously progressive society.

StanleyBostitch, everyone is gender fluid.
The U.K. is a country of eccentrics and free thinkers compared to say the US.

The whole point is that transing children/young people, and all the harm that will entail, on the basis that because they do not conform to gender stereotypes they are in the wrong body, is the epitome of intolerance.

in addition, if they have body dysphoria and the reasons for it are not explored, but rather they are transed, that is child abuse by neglect let alone by the ‘medical care’ that may follow.

If they might grow up to be gay, and that is why in a very few cases they are gender non conforming, but their society or religion is repulsed by that and transes them, that is hardly tolerance either.

Nobody is 'transing' anyone.

Some people are just...trans?

And some kids are gay - will grow up to be gay and aren’t ‘in the wrong body’ or ‘GI Joe/Barbie’.

Asking someone’s “pronouns” is like asking their sexual orientation or bank balance. There ARE places it might be ok to ask but I’m pretty sure it’s NOT in a group intro like this.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean people who are trans are actually brainwashed gay people.

Presumably they'd still be trans without us? So why do we and our children need to be involved in it?

Why are we needed? Just be trans and leave us out of it

The whistleblowers at the Tavistock were horrified when it became apparent that some parents didn't want gay or effeminate children but transing them meant they would be able to have straight kids.

So yes some parents have been transing away the gay. It's why the activists are trying to put a stop to the CASS review of data of outcomes from transgender children.

So that wee kid in the US - current poster kid for trans - whose mum is on record as saying that when the kid was little they liked ‘girl’ things and she was scared he was gay (and they couldn’t have that).

She says she beat the kid every day until miraculously he realised he was a girl. now the kid is on TV, at rallies, $$$ a rolling in…

I’m using the sex pronouns here because it’s too bloody confusing to use any other.

strawberrylacey · Today 16:34
Nobody is 'transing' anyone.

Of course they are. I have seen advertisements for pretend phalluses for tiny children. Do you think they are going on the internet to buy them?

Do you think a confused gay child whose
religion says they are evil is thinking they might be ‘in the wrong body’ for no reason?

Do you think that teenage girls are not being influenced by peer pressure and on-line forums?

Why do you think these youth workers are pushing an ideology? Are they genuinely worried a trans child is being held captive by their own mind if the youth worker doesn’t step in to enlighten them?

Do you think social media really has no agency to it?

Stonewall, Mermaids et al have been infiltrating schools, and influencing the removal of certain words [thoughts] from our language as have institutions following a trend in the US.. Do you think that has no effect?

Why was that deleted I wonder? Was I too certain that human beings cannot change sex?

I said absolutely nothing that was derogatory, didn't break any of the 'special rules' for FWR, that I am aware of. I recounted having lived in the 80s, been gender bending, married my gender gender bending boyfriend and having little or no truck with those who cleave unto gender stereotypes.

I told our current chastiser that what she is seeing is not intolerance but women not actually caring about how somebody presents, all that surface decoration (I wonder if that was the naughty phrase?) but that sex is biology, immutable.

I can only assume I was reported for being too feminist - on FWR - on Mumsnet!!

When will this policing of women's thoughts end?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · Today 17:09

I read your post and don’t know why either.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist ... do ask why you were deleted. These threads tend to be 'brought to MN attention' which sometimes results them being a little quick to delete ... worth asking and clarifying if the deletion reason is not simply silencing an opposing view.

KittenKong · Today 16:48
So that wee kid in the US - current poster kid for trans - whose mum is on record as saying that when the kid was little they liked ‘girl’ things and she was scared he was gay (and they couldn’t have that).

She says she beat the kid every day until miraculously he realised he was a girl. now the kid is on TV, at rallies, $$$ a rolling in…

I’m using the sex pronouns here because it’s too bloody confusing to use any other.

I saw that too, Kitten. The mother does actually say she wondered if the child might be gay, and she actually then went on to say she even beat the little child when they did ‘girl’ things. This was as a toddler basically. The child aged 4 had then started talking about ‘Going to join Jesus’ meaning die. As the child was a victim of child abuse, and from what I could see highly sensitive and possibly gifted, it is no wonder they felt that way.

The little boy ( he was at birth) was not like his brothers. This was how the whole thing started.

No one sees the glaringly obvious. An unusual child was born into a US fundamentalist religious family where older brothers conform to typical probably unpleasant forms of masculinity, child is unlike them and expresses the difference as a toddler. Homophobic, abusive punishment follows.

I have done. I usually do.. and occasionally find I left a snark in that, when read with intent, could be deemed 'naughty'. But this one defeats me.

As I haven't had a deletion message I am guessing I was simply "too direct", it may have felt like a personal attack or something - as I did respond directly to a poster. Those ones I can do nothing about. It is not expected that those who chastise have the same rhinoceros thick hide we women have to have!

The only reason to know pronouns is to know how to speak about them when they are not there. But the youth trainer will presumably only be teaching them when they are there?

Tbf that's really not true. You use 3rd person pronouns to refer to people when they are there as well. "Jane - Freddie is having trouble with that activity - could you help him?" etc.

I agree it's nonsense and inappropriate though. Asking the kids their names is enough. In the unlikely event that one of them is having uncertainties about their identity at that age, they may very well not want to start stating pronouns anyway!

Ooh! You can't report a deleted post any more. So asking will be a tad more tricky that it used to be!