My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

[Pronoundisquiet]

My two sons aged 10 and 6 go to a religion school every Saturday. Occasionally they have an outside visit from a youth group affiliated with our religion.
My 10 year old told me that today the youth group leader visited the class. They did a session on their identity and went round the room introducing themselves, saying their name, if they were a boy or a girl, what their pronouns were and what their favourite ice cream was.

Apparently the last time they visited they did the same.

10 year old answered the question, 6 year old apparently just said “I am a boy”

The religion school is run by volunteers not affiliated to the youth group so I want to be mindful what I say. I also want to come up with a more reasoned argument as to why asking 6 year old their pronouns is fucking nonsense other than “this is fucking nonsense”
Can anyone help please?

strawberrylacey · Today 16:40
Exactly. But that doesn't mean people who are trans are actually brainwashed gay people.

Yes it does. Or people who were sexually abused as a child, or feel they don’t fit in because they are autistic and ‘different’ and want a group to belong to, or brought up in care and went through trauma, or felt rejected as they were, or are in a group at school and looking for an identity ……. we are talking about very young people here.

First look into all the other factors which may be influencing them, because unlike being gay which which will do no harm, embarking on a course of puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones and surgery cannot be taken without serious and permanent effects.

It has been shown that the majority of young people who think they are in the wrong body, but who are not affirmed and set on that course, do desist by the time they are about 20. If they still think of themselves as trans, then that is different.

The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools. So, asking children for pronouns, or questioning their sex, is aimed at subliminally hinting that there may be a mismatch and imo is very wrong.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist .. I also had a deletion without a message, I emailed [email protected] and they explained and then reinstated..

I don't know what you said.. so not commenting on the content.

The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools
What do you mean by this?

What is your definition of misgendering?

You've deliberately given yourself a male name and then moaning about being misgendered.

Real trans people (the ones who make an effort to look like the opposite sex) are likely to be addressed as the opposite sex.

I've seen too many times Dave the bearded male state he has female pronouns and then moan he has been misgendered as male.

5zeds · Today 20:26
“The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools”

What do you mean by this?

This was addressed to me. This article below about new D of E RSE guidance would explain what I meant.

Also, see the “Genderbread person” complete with worksheets, pink brain and blue brain, and ‘sex assigned at birth’ terms.

The new Department for Education RSE guidance: what should schools look out for?

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/

Is it possible to read the guidelines and are they applicable across all uk?

@5zeds · Today 01:36
Is it possible to read the guidelines and are they applicable across all uk?

If you read the TransgenderTrend article I posted before, I think they link the actual government guidelines.

Look for a heading written in a different colour or underlined to click on. Those guidelines may say if they apply across all the U.K. or not.

Ok I think having read (skimmed) the guidance this is the relevant bit

We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate. You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear. Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material. While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

You should work together with parents on any decisions regarding your school’s treatment of their child, in line with the school’s safeguarding policy and the statutory guidance on working together to safeguard children.

I don’t think it’s saying The idea that children have a gendered mind which could be sitting in the ‘wrong’ body has no scientific basis, and is no longer supposed to be allowed in schools. as pp suggested but it takes a similar stance to the stance on political/religious influence, possibly a harder line in some ways because I don’t think your parents would be involved over religion or politics (though I have no experience to back that up)

if anyone would be interested in reading the guidance

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

There are a few threads where that is discussed in some detail - why believing in immutable sex is 'a belief worth of respect', the legal path that ended with decision and why it is in itself not the definitive law but a protection against discrimination for speaking up!

Many of us followed the various cases in detail so the threads are full and complex. I'd link to one but I am on my phone and the Search thingy is nigh on useless!

5zeds · Today 08:24
re:guidelines
You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear.

“Tell me, are you a boy or are you a girl?” ( Implying this is a rather difficult thing to know)

“Tell me your pronoun, because although you seem like a boy, how do I know?”

Seem to implicitly hint at this.

While teachers should not suggest to a child that their non-compliance with gender stereotypes means that either their personality or their body is wrong and in need of changing, teachers should always seek to treat individual students with sympathy and support.

Also schools were, or maybe are in some cases, using the Genderbread person. I don’t have time to look for links but it is problematic. Safe Schools Alliance has articles on the various outside resources schools were/are using.

Ideas are allowed in school and everywhere else but in school there is guidance (linked above) as teachers/schools mustn’t seek to influence children on some subjects because their position as a trusted authority requires special care be taken. I would imagine this is true of youth workers and OP could refer to it when asking why this is going on. Personally I wouldn’t link to lobby groups because the whole thing will become more problematic.