My children being asked their pronouns by youth group leader

[Pronoundisquiet]

My two sons aged 10 and 6 go to a religion school every Saturday. Occasionally they have an outside visit from a youth group affiliated with our religion.
My 10 year old told me that today the youth group leader visited the class. They did a session on their identity and went round the room introducing themselves, saying their name, if they were a boy or a girl, what their pronouns were and what their favourite ice cream was.

Apparently the last time they visited they did the same.

10 year old answered the question, 6 year old apparently just said “I am a boy”

The religion school is run by volunteers not affiliated to the youth group so I want to be mindful what I say. I also want to come up with a more reasoned argument as to why asking 6 year old their pronouns is fucking nonsense other than “this is fucking nonsense”
Can anyone help please?

No, it's nothing like a name or a nickname. You cannot guess the name or nickname of a person unless they tell you, but you can accurately sex them in the majority of the cases.
'Declaring pronouns' implies that if someone does not tell you their pronouns you would not know how to address them, which is bollocks.

If an adult believes their gender identity (whatever that is) is different to their sex, and want to be treated differently to be more included in the world as you say, they can ask. There is no need for everyone else to declare their pronouns.

Using your logic: how about asking everyone who they vote for? Which football team they support? If they prefer coffee or tea? Are they pro or anti the death penalty? Etc etc…

Pointless. Irrelevant to the group’s purpose, and could potentially cause rifts in a group.

If my daughter was consistently getting mistaken for a boy causing her embarrassment and annoyance, I would change her hair. You're in charge of it, not her! It's as if you like her being mistaken all the time (causing attention)

I feel like people now feel the need to make a point all the bloody time about not following 'normal' paths. She's a girl. Not hard at all for her to look like one as a child. Are you deliberately making her look like a boy!?

Everyone on here was a child once, and no one had to pronounce their pronouns as a child (this concept didn't even exist 5 years ago).

There is no need for a child to announce their sex and pronouns. This is simply a task to get children to think that they are interchangeable and I have no doubt these parties were waiting for a boy to have a joke and say he was a girl and then the whole class would be given a nice long lecture about gender identity.

Pronoun switching is deliberately antagonistic towards people with dyslexia. So out of politeness use the default pronouns of he for males, she for females otherwise you are discriminating against dyslexia.

@CoastalWave ... but if her daughter likes to wear her hair short .. why shouldn't she? Why should she have to conform?

My daughter hasn't worn a skirt or a dress since she was 4.... she has lots of male friends.. plays football and is good at Maths and ICT. She is a girl. A few people did ask when she was younger and some younger kids did say things like, I know DD is a girl but she's really a boy... this was innocent stereotyping and an attempt to give reasons to include her in their gang.

My son had long blond hair and played football in goal. A few people used to say how great it ways that he was accepted in the boys team as one of the boys.. mortified when they realised he was a boy.. at an indoor tournament once, he was in a penalty shootout and got huge cheers from the entire crowd.. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was because they all thought he was a girl!!

I would not nor should not, have ever overruled my daughter's choices of boy shorts, no pink or sparkles and never any dresses nor should I have insisted on choosing my son's hair style

I'd be tempted to ask why they think it's appropriate to even raise the idea, however indirectly, to children in a religious setting that God made a mistake and may have put them in the wrong body.

I think this is quite pertinent in a religious setting.

And if they come back with nonsense then I'd ask if they think God made a mistake with children who are born with physical "deformities", "disabilities" and/or serious health issues.

Isn't one of the points of the Abrahamic religions, if not some others too, that God doesn't make mistakes?

Names and titles aren't pronouns. I'll call someone whatever they want to be called but when it comes to pronouns they should be sex based. If we can get back to sex based pronouns I'll never gave to hear the phrase her penis ever again.

Judgmental much? Her hair just didn't grow, she was 4 years old, I had never cut it she was just pretty bald until she was 2.5 and it filled in slowly, its also very light. What was I supposed to do, buy her a wig?

She has a feminine name, she was wearing pink trainers with the unisex uniform. She didnt have enough hair to hold a hair clip as it was very fine and straight so they would just slip out and she was playing rounders so really there is not much more I can do for her.

Since she started being bothered by being called a boy I do try to dress her as girly as I can to avoid her being embarassed when people make mistakes.

I'm obviously not 'trying to make her look like a boy' or I wouldn't be making a point that children are not always easy to guess the sex of. Eg girl with short hair, boy called Lou, god forbid a kid who is wearing unisex clothes, there just isn't a massibe difference in the appearance of children

So sometimes it is helpful to ask is the kid is a boy or a girl, and its maybe not the worst thing to ask everyone so the one kid that you cant quite guess doesnt always have to be singled out. That was all.

Stanley Bostitch above says using pronouns is about inclusion and showing respect for gender identity. I have no respect for gender identity and others have said why it's the opposite of inclusion.

Where do we draw the line - at made up pronouns, maybe? I see no reason to be obliged to use words that don't exist like fae/faer. I won't capitulate to such nonsense.

‘Gender identity’ is about subscribing to a set of regressive, sexist stereotypes.

I have no respect for that.

Why should I be forced to ‘show respect’ for something I find incredible misogynistic and harmful to girls and women?

This is what I ‘honestly don’t understand’.

Why should I be forced to ‘show respect’ for something I find incredible misogynistic and harmful to girls and women

Expecially when it has been shown time and time again that respect is not enough. Its not enough to let them.get on with it, and talk to them/treat them just as you would anyone else. You have to hand over total control of your eyes ears and thoughts and your own reality in order to indulge someone else's. That's not respect That's control and abuse. We don't owe anyone that.

@alisondonut

Thanks, I've already read that essay. I should also point out that I'm female, so don't assume I'm male. I'm firmly of the opinion that if we don't use the pronouns that are preferred by those around us, then we are mis gendering them and that's doing them a disservice. Just as I don't want you treating me as male (because I identify as a female) I also believe in gendering others in the way they would want. Very few people in our world identify with a gender that is not immediately obvious to us, it's not that hard to accommodate those people. I find the push back on Mumsnet against preferred pronouns intriguing. I often wonder how vocal members would feel if their children decided that they had been misgendered at birth and asked to use alternative pronouns. To me, using preferred pronouns is about including others and making their decisions around identity feel validated, regardless of whether those decisions are permanent or transient. I honestly don't understand the push back.

@iamAporcupine

'In the majority of cases'...and therein lies the fault in your argument. Using preferred pronouns includes people whose gender you cannot guess. Because inclusion is a basic human right.

The concept existed. People have felt misgendered for hundreds of years, now they are finally being heard. Just because it's not your experience doesn't mean it's not an experience.

I was born in England but live in another country. I'm honestly gobsmacked at the intolerance on this website for those who do not fit into the standard gender mould. Where I live we're vastly more accepting of gender fluidity, and I wouldn't say we're an enormously progressive society.

Well you are completely misunderstanding the issue.

We believe in the existence of sex. People of either sex can be as gender non conformist as they want to be. We don't want them to have to sterilise themselves to fit into any gender mould. We dont want girls to have their breasts removed just becaus they don't like dolls. And we don't want boys to have their penises removed or shrunk because they do.

Oh we know all about gender fluidity on this board. Indeed a lot of us have experienced it ourselves, which is precisely why we don't believe it should take precedence over sex.

I didn't assume anything about your aex. I called you Stanley. As that is your chosen user name.

And nobody is misgendered at birth. People are sexed at conception.

People have felt misgendered for hundreds of years, now they are finally being heard.

Genuine question: what do you mean by misgendered? The idea that gender stereotypes are regressive and many people don't fit the standard mold of what men and women 'should' be like is hardly news to feminists. It's the foundational premise of GC/radical feminism.

What does that have to do with insisting people use made up pronouns or announce their pronouns to others?

I was born in England but live in another country. I'm honestly gobsmacked at the intolerance on this website for those who do not fit into the standard gender mould.

I wonder whether you don't understand the discussion because you aren't from the UK? Nobody (well there are probably some, we get non-feminists too) on MN FWR is opposed to gender non-conformity. The issue is that forced announcement of pronouns is being pushed by a number of organisations campaigning to remove women's rights, so people assume that happening in a school setting is part of that agenda.

I appreciate why this might seem like scaremongering if you haven't seen the problem; I'm a teacher and I'm speaking from first hand experience. I hate gender sterotypes and I'm very happy to see them being broken down- that's not what this is about.

Misgendered? Most of my family’s first language doesn’t have pronouns.

we recently had a set of photos doing the rounds ‘he is really looking forward to going camping with his friends! He is so happy’. It’s a girl, she knows she’s a girl, we all know she’s a girl, I’m frequently referred to as ‘he’, but hey, no one ever died as a result.

some people need to get their heads out of their own behinds. Feel ‘unsafe’ because someone referred to you (or thinks of you) as your born sex pronoun? You need to really think about your life, and think how lucky you are if that’s your detention of ‘unsafe’

I was born in England but live in another country. I'm honestly gobsmacked at the intolerance on this website for those who do not fit into the standard gender mould.

On the contrary, we are all for breaking the gender mould. In fact it is gender ideologists, who say that if girls wear male attire and do " male" activities, that means they are really men. Here we say ,wear what you like, live as you please bur don't infringe others' rights.

waffle, waffle, waffle, me, me , look at meeeeeeee! self entitled narcissistic twaddle.

lol at the idea that FWR is trying to force people into gender stereotypes

we hate gender stereotypes that’s the bloody point! A boy wearing a dress with long hair is still a boy - he’s a boy breaking the gender stereotypes and good on him. He’s not a bloody girl

most of the women here grew up in the 70s & 80s when “gender bending” was completely normal. We knew then as we know now that women in trousers with short hair are not men, they’re women who don’t fit gender stereotypes

the idea that misgendering is this terrible awful appalling crime is so narcissistic it’s laughable. I used to have very very short hair & was on occasion misgendered. Somehow I managed to struggle through without screaming & retiring to my fainting couch

My brother had long hair in the 70/80s, he was also short and very slim. The times he got called a girl… it’s amazing he’s not dead 🙄

To me, using preferred pronouns is about including others and making their decisions around identity feel validated,

However to others, being asked to use a pronoun that doesn't match the recipients actual biological sex is effectively asking them to tell lie. Should we be encouraging kids to say things that they know are not true in order to make others feel validated?