What you all said was coming

[Pippinbird]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10947483/Anguish-young-man-sex-organs-removed-NHS-regretted-day-SUES-NHS

I can sympathise as I understand how you felt although for me it was the other way round. Emergency CS which I hated, next child I didn't want a CS, it ended up with a very difficult forceps delivery. Baby was bruised but no permanent damage but I still sometimes think how my gamble could have gone very very wrong and how terrible that would be. We make choices and have to live with them and accept our own part in them.

Individual doctors didn't know. The drug company did.

I think that's unfair though. Aside from the fact it seems he was mentally unwell there is so so so much misinformation online about the surgery, and few resources that actually spell out what it's actually like and the risks. It's being sold to people (including children) as a magic fix, and some put a lot of time and effort into supporting this notion in online content.

I understand your point, but then due Stonewall and Mermaids, and Facebook and twitter. Not the NHS that gave you what you wanted

I can't find NICE guidance on trans healthcare. They have made a few comments about the quality of evidence for puberty blockers and opposite sex hormones in children but I can't find anything about the efficacy of surgical intervention in adults.

I found the service specification for surgical intervention in adults. I don't even know where to begin critiquing the contents.

www.england.nhs.uk/publication/service-specification-gender-identity-services-for-adults-surgical-interventions/

The more I read and see the more convinced I am that we should not be offering surgery to anyone with gender dysphoria. The list of common complications contained in the patient information leaflet linked previously is shocking, how can anyone write that and not have serious questions about the cost/benefit.

Having read his twitter on this I do feel sympathy for him.

He is in noway stupid and of course knew his genitals were going to be removed but he was sold a lie. A lie that grew from on line grooming in the trans groups he joined. A lie that the NHS colluded with and affirmed to him that the surgery would change his sex and he would become a woman.
He knew as soon as he woke he was still a man just a castrated man. That's not what women are!

The medical bodies accept that body dysmorphia is a mental illness if its based around weight or dozens of surgerys to look like a cat or have breast enlargements so big it can kill you or removal of limbs as the person feels disabled yet when it comes to gender dysmorphia all that understanding is thrown out the window! Why?

You go to a doctor with a medical problem, they explain treatment options and what they advise.

If this young man was advised surgery would benefit him and went ahead, I really don't think the blame should be shifted to him.

Not the NHS that gave you what you wanted

It is not the job of the NHS to give you what you want. It is the responsibility of the NHS to provide you with what you need. It is also the responsibility of the NHS to distinguish between the two.

This man has described himself as being in a 'deeply unwell, obsessive state'.

I'm shocked at the lack of compassion being shown on this thread.

I agree. People make decisions about their options re treatment. If someone has a mental health issue, the NHS doesn’t have time to assess that in detail before going ahead with treatment. What annoys me is the time and expense involved in these procedures, whilst people with actual medical conditions are on huge waiting lists. Also people wirh other mental health issues are ignored or there is no help available.
Why is gender reassignment considered so high up the list of priorities in an overstretched system?

I actually read his Twitter feed.
And he comes across as kind,sweet and a little bit gullible.

And it seems he's suing the NHS so it doesn't happen to anyone else,rather than get a big pay out.

I do believe he was mis sold this ideology and he certainly should have done more independent research.
But he believed the doctors
He believed that was the best outcome for him.

I hope he wins just so there's more regulations put in place so hopefully it doesn't happen to anyone else.

In fairness, we see a lot of posts from women angry about the fact they they have been denied hysterectomies in their 20s or 30s case they change their minds about having children in future.

That is the removal of a healthy body part.

in case

When ideology meets medicine vulnerable people always pay the price.

Having healthy body parts removed and others mutilated should NEVER be viewed as the optimal outcome. It should be reserved for when all other avenues have been explored and exhausted, a choice of last resort.

The fewer people who have this surgery the better, not because there should be less trans people in the world but because there has to be a less brutal way to manage transition physically and mentally.

Stonewall, Mermaids et al should be collecting data, funding research, to ensure that gender questioning people in the future are supported in the safest and most effective ways possible. But they are way more focused on defending the ideology than actually helping trans people, who deserve much better care than they are getting.

But, above all, until the research has been done, stop mutilating people!

That is the removal of a healthy body part.

If the young women want the hysterectomy as a treatment for endometriosis or intractable fibroids, that's not a healthy body part.

If it's for prevention of pregnancy, I would wonder why tubal ligation wouldn't be appropriate.

That’s quite a big “if” though. It seems far more likely that he was told of the risks, as is normal before electing for a procedure.

I don't have time to read whole thread plus I am sick of woke culture, so I don't really care if I'm quoted or not. I don't feel sorry for him. I only feel sorry for people with cancer etc. who have to wait for their turn while money is recklessly spent on such stuff.

The NHS shouldn't be providing surgery if the risks outweight the benefits.

As I said, if he was advised it would benefit him, the blame shouldn't be on him. If he wasn't advised it would benefit him, the NHS shouldn't have provided it.

No one would be saying this if it was surgery unrelated to gender identity.

False dichotomy.

It isn't someone gets this kind of surgery meaning someone else doesn't get cancer treatment.

There's a Just Checking In podcast with the person in question: vent.org.uk/jcip-132-tullipr

The lack of sympathy towards him (as evidenced in this thread) as opposed to someone like Kiera Bell is stark.

@User79865765 I agree with you. If his case succeeds and the NHS have to pay up £££, then I hope they'll think twice about offering this surgery to other people. Bottom line - money talks

And why, when so many NHS services are in crisis, is the NHS wasting money removing people's healthy genitals?

Seriously? Of course it’s about the money. Always about the money. People like to say it isn’t to try not to appear grabby, especially when it’s the NHS. But I’ll bet his solicitor has already plucked out a figure and the paperwork already sitting on the desks of the legal teams.

False dichotomy.
It isn't someone gets this kind of surgery meaning someone else doesn't get cancer treatment.

I think it probably does. This kind of sex re-assignment surgery, and all the aftercare involved, doesn't come cheap.

I am really surprised by the antagonism on here towards the NHS. Is it coming from a place of they deserve it because they have consulted with the likes of Stonewall and have taken onboard their advice? I find it also surprising the amount of posts saying that trans people are mentally ill and therefore not able to consent to surgery. I am no expert on any of this at all but feel that this was a man not a child who chose a certain pathway and has then regretted it. He has used valuable time and resources and now isn't happy.

In Scotland they are currently trying to make this kind of move even more liberal ie that the person does not have to provide any medical evidence or even talk about their issue to get a GRC and also extending this to the age of 16. I remember many years ago watching a documentary which followed young American men who had surgically transitioned and their regret. This is not new.

I feel sad for their outcome. Surgery regret however is extremely low for trans people, so the furore over one case should not be taken out of perspective.

Research by Prof. Dr P. T. Cohen-Kettenis, VU University Medical Centre, Department of Medical Psychology, shows that of 162 trans adults, only 1 reported they would choose not to transition again. Another had some regrets but would choose to transition again (0.6% regret rate) Sex reassignment: outcomes and predictors of treatment for adolescent and adult transsexuals.

Reality is, especially in the current system, this individual will have gone through years of waiting and counselling to get to surgery. They also would have been informed of the risks and signed a disclaimer. So I cant see how they will be successful.

But evidence is that majority of trans peeps going through this surgery do not regret doing it. Let's face it, no-one does surgery on a whim, no matter what for.

You don't stop surgery that improves peoples lives for the odd case that regretfully is not what they wanted or didnt work out.

It's not experimental, it's at least 50 years of experience now.

So no, one odd case out, doesn't mean "what you all said was coming" has borne the fruit the OP suggests.

Let's be a little kinder. Support this individual, but also those who feel the need for surgical intervention.

Surgical Outcomes for Trans Peeps

If he successfully sues the NHS, it may inspire similar lawsuits in America. And that's the only way to turn the tide in the US.

if he was advised it would benefit him, the blame shouldn't be on him. If he wasn't advised it would benefit him, the NHS shouldn't have provided it.

It's mixed. For whatever reason, as outlined by PP, the adult service operates an affirmation only model. Tulip did delay. However, it's plain that, for whatever reason, the HCPs (GPs, the Gender Clinic) were behaving as if this would resolve the gender dysphoria and, potentially, be life-saving.

I would strongly recommend the podcast and Benjamin Boyce interview for a much fuller picture that is presented in the Daily Mail piece.

It will be interesting to see if any of the HCPs documented concerns about Tulip's mental health but couldn't see another approach that they could use or if this will largely be about the quality of the surgery (the files have been made obtained through a SAR).