Scotland - male wears female swimsuit

[respectmysex]

Saw this on Reddit and was surprised by the very sensible way it was handled by the pool, police and comments on Reddit. No hint of entitlement and just sensible safeguarding.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/vfa4og/genderbaseddclothingissuessandbreachhofthe/?utmmsource=share&utmmedium=iossapp&utmname=iossmf

Here is the text of the OP for those not on Reddit.

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Gender based clothing issues and breach of the peace (Scotland)

Throwaway account for obvious reasons. This is unfortunately not a hypothetical question, the following events happened last month in Scotland to one of my relatives but they only disclosed it to me this week. I have their permission to post this here, I’ll try and keep it as short as I can but this is their story as they told it to me. Just to warn you right away I’ve marked this post NSFW because it touches on some potentially sensitive topics i.e. gender issues and allegations of inappropriate behaviour.

TLDR: is it a breach of the peace or a sexual offence for a non-binary person (born male) to wear a female swimming costume in a council pool if another swimmer complains?

My relative is in their early 20s and has been struggling with gender and body issues since childhood; they were born male but feel somewhere between non-binary and female. We’ve always been close as we grew up around each other, I’m the only family member they’ve told about their feelings and I have been trying to help them as best I can. They have always previously presented as male but are becoming more confident at presenting in public as non-binary and earlier this year started occasionally presenting as female.

They visit a council leisure centre for a lane swimming session; they have been swimming at the leisure centre on and off for a for a few years but have always previously presented as male there. On this occasion they’re wearing male clothes to and from the centre but decide that today they’re going to wear a female one piece swimsuit when in the pool because they want to feel more comfortable than going bare chested. They see this as a big step towards accepting their gender identity.

The changing area is shared gender and is made up entirely of private cubicles. It’s not very busy but there are a few other customers about. My relative goes into a cubicle, gets changed, puts their stuff in a locker, takes a shower and enters the pool. They are swimming lengths when a lifeguard attracts their attention and asks them to come to the side of the pool. The lifeguard says that a woman has complained about what they are wearing and asks why they are choosing to wear a female swimsuit “as a man”. They immediately become embarrassed and self conscious, and struggle to come up with a coherent answer because these are difficult and deeply rooted issues which are hard to discuss with strangers. The lifeguard then asks them to get out of the pool, sit on the benches and wait for the duty manager. My relative does this but now feels even more self conscious as other swimmers are staring at them.

The duty manager arrives a couple of minutes later and she asks the same question as the lifeguard. My relative replies that they are finding it hard to talk about but they have gender issues that they’re trying to come to terms with and they identify as non-binary. The manager asks if they are being treated by a doctor for being transgender and they answer no. The manager asks if they told the reception staff that they were transgender when they paid and they reply that they didn’t know they were supposed to do that.

The duty manager then tells them that they “get a lot of perverts” at the pool and says that unless they can supply some evidence of being genuinely transgender then the police would be called. My relative sees the clear implication of this statement is that the manager thinks they’re one of the perverts. Because of this they get a bit upset and agitated so they tell the manager that they‘d prefer to just leave and they walk away to get changed.

By the time they’re finished getting changed and are on the way out, two police officers are waiting at the reception desk and the duty manager points out my relative to them. The officers take them to one side of the entrance (still in public view and earshot), tell them that they’ve been called to a potential breach of the peace because of their behaviour and ask them to confirm they were wearing a female swimsuit in the pool. One officer asks them to explain why they are now dressed as a man but were wearing a female swimming costume earlier.

The officer says that a woman has complained that her young children could see their gentials through the suit, and that she had alleged my relative was aroused while walking around the changing area. They strongly deny this. The officer asks whether they were wearing the swimsuit because of a sexual fetish and again my relative very strongly denies this. At this point they just want the ground to open up and swallow them. The other officer tells them they have to take child protection very seriously and that my relative could be in big trouble.

One officer then asks for their name, address and date of birth and goes off on his own, presumably to check them on the police radio. The other officer asks to look through their bag. This officer takes the wet swimsuit out, holds it up and asks them if this is what they were wearing in the pool. The officer then examines it very closely and my relative says they think that the officer may have been looking for evidence of semen on the fabric. After a while the officer puts it back in the bag then tells them not to move and goes away.

After a few minutes both officers come back together with the manager and tell my relative that they’re “not known on the system” so they’re free to leave. However they warn them not to come back to the leisure centre again and that if they’re seen “hanging around here” again then they would be arrested for a breach of the peace and could end up on the sex offender’s register. The duty manager says that her staff will be looking out for them. Just before my relative walks out the door one of the officers says loudly “you can do like in your own home but let this be a lesson for you”.

My relative is totally mortified by the whole thing, they found it very traumatic and it has really upset them. They say they have no intention of ever going back to the pool again but they’re worried this incident may come back to bite them in future, in particular they are terrified they’re going to end up labelled as a sex offender on some government database. I can’t stress enough that there is no sexual element to my relative’s actions; they are just trying to live their life exploring their true gender identity and this unpleasant accusation has knocked their confidence hugely.

I’m very angry about the outrageous way my relative was treated (I actually found this post very difficult to write dispassionately) and I have a few questions on their behalf:

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• Is the wearing of a female swimsuit by a person with male genitalia at a public pool a breach of the peace or a sexual offence in Scotland?

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• Have any equalities law been broken, either by the council employees or the police officers? If so, is there a legal remedy open to them?

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• Can the police and the council effectively informally ban my relative from a taxpayer funded leisure centre because the way they prefer to dress goes against social norms?

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• Can the police keep a record of this incident and if so will it show on a pre-employment check?

Not sure why you are posting this here. Maybe better to ask a lawyer.

Oops. Sorry did not realize this was a repost

Surely a rash vest and shorts would have made more sense - something that lots of women do actually wear to swim.
Wearing a swimming costume “as a man” is surely just going to increase your dysphoria?

This man sounds like possibly an innocent victim of an ideology which encourages people to behave in ways which would usually raise red flags. By encouraging as many vulnerable but not predatory people as possible to behave in these ways the behaviour of the dangerous ones can more easily be obscured. I genuinely feel for this poor confused person and others like him.

@Clangyleg no problem. I brought it here as this response from police in Scotland and also the responses to the OP were just....really sensible. No fear of questioning the person involved and investigated proportionately.

It's as if the vast majority of public do actually see it for what it is and can quite easily discern the issues. The issues only seem to get clouded when TRAs make unreasonable demands.

Really? You think accusing the swimmer of being a pervert and calling the police on them for wearing swimwear is appropriate and handled sensitively? How is it different from wearing a pair of speedos in terms of being able to see any genitalia?

I agree OP, it is reassuring and somewhat surprising that the leisure centre staff and police dealt with this from the safeguarding angle. Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised. I sincerely hoped that those involved aren’t subjected to any re-education which would encourage them to ignore their natural instincts and all previous training and experiences of safeguarding.

Some garments are made specifically for purpose and swimwear is one. A woman’s swimsuit does not need reinforcing in the genital area because women don’t have body parts which stick out there. Men do, so Speedo’s are made of thicker fabric and usually lined or reinforced at the front to hold the genitals secure and make them less easily distinguishable. The angle of the cut of the leg is also different.

I can well believe that male genitalia in a female swimsuit would be highly and inappropriately visible. If the relative had worn something more of a coverup then there wouldn’t have been an issue.

so yes, it’s not just the same as wear what you like as the clothing is designed functionally: sex-specific for a reason.

I'm wondering how wearing a swimming costume for the female body will help a man with body dysphoria. Maybe it takes their focus from the chest area and towards the slim gusset area which may have 'spillage' out the sides, by their testicles and possibly penis. I know some men use a swimming costume designed for the male body which has this area reinforced. Or, they tape down their male genitals so that they don't spill out the sides.

The problem is that the may have been exposing themselves if using a swimsuit designed for a female body.

I'm Scottish and suspect the original Reddit poster changed some identifying details, because I simply don't believe Police Scotland would have reacted like this. IRL they would have thrown the person concerned a parade and arrested the reporting manager for hate crime. It's bobbins.

That all said, I actually don't care what people wear to swim as long as their genitals are covered and given it was a unisex changing village set up, I think the person was actually treated appallingly (assuming their genitals were covered, of course). Clothing is not the hill to die on and I'm surprised so many people think this is proportionate.

So the male bodied people who are presenting as women to shock others and get a sexual thrill, are spoiling it for 'genuine' trans people?
Oh dear.

I'm surprised and impressed that the police took this seriously. It suggests that Nicola Sturgeon does not have the whole of Scotland with her in her push for self-ID. My sympathy is with the other people, especially children, who are forced to be props in men's fantasies by providing an unwilling audience.

However, I feel some sympathy for the writer's young relative who, as Pomegranate notes, has been encouraged to think this is acceptable.

I think it was a mistake to focus on the swimwear itself. I don't think there are any laws preventing a man from wearing a swimsuit. The changing rooms were mixed sex so he hadn't entered a designated female space. I have an problem with mixed sex changing rooms but that is a separate issue to men wearing a typically female item of clothing.

If the issue was indecency because the swimsuit failed to give adequate coverage or there was evidence that the man was behaving inappropriately then the police were right to investigate but we only have a second hand report here so it's difficult to say if this was a proportionate response. If the swimsuit did not give adequate coverage then I would expect there to be plenty of witnesses, including the lifeguard to attest to that fact.

I've not compared Speedos to a swimming costume but I assume the Speedos have an extra lining and wouldn't be as high cut on the hips. Bearing in mind men's hips are also very different to female hips. The individual could have bought a costume with short legs as a half way stop. Also maybe he didn't realise he was walking around erect it semi erect as he was so focussed on being a male who is Jon binary but erring to thinking they were a woman.

Good on the staff and that woman complaining as it sounds more like exhibitionism than gender dysphoria. I would have thought Tring a skirt in public would have been a first step not going swimming in a ladies cut costume.

I'm also surprised that Police Scotland acted in this way.

I don't think it is appropriate for a male to wear a female swimsuit as the double lining for the genitals is in the wrong place. I find it strange that that this man felt uncomfortable with his sexed body yet chose to emphasise it in this way - as a PP said a rash vest and speedos (which look like bikini bottoms) would have covered far more.

Appropriately sized Speedos are cut quite differently to a swimming costume cut for a woman’s anatomy.

That said, your comment has reminded me of a man who kept making eye contact with me at a pool when I was a teen - he was wearing Speedos, but tiny ones, and his genitalia was not contained. I wish I’d had the confidence to complain but I just stayed away from him.

To be clear, that wasn’t okay either.

The officer says that a woman has complained that her young children could see their gentials through the suit, and that she had alleged my relative was aroused while walking around the changing area. They strongly deny this

So the woman said this person was walking around with a boner through a swimming costume, and when confronted he said he wasn’t.

Who would I believe? 🤔

Understand the predicament the swimmer was in but need to take into account that in public areas like a swimming pool where there could be children, they may hit safe guarding concerns.

they’re wearing male clothes to and from the centre but decide that today they’re going to wear a female one piece swimsuit when in the pool because they want to feel more comfortable than going bare chested.

If been bare chested was the problem than a rash vest or T-shirt (if allowed) would have been better here. Same issue if a trans man decided to wear just a pair of speedos & go bare chested, exposing their breasts.

And yes Speedo's might look revealing but they are designed to keep everything out is sight, which a female costume will not.

It is not unreasonable to expect everyone's bits and pieces are kept under wraps when children are present in a public facility. A man wearing a woman's swimming costume in front of children is a safe guarding issue.

Difficult one - wear what you like for fashion or comfort. Don't try and gender clothes, they're just different style of cloth.
vs
You know an over sexually excited male when you see one. The police wouldn't easily go to investigate, unless the Management made a big fuss, with the lure of an easy arrest if there was good evidence, ie CCTV showing exactly how this person behaved.
Let's start listening to women and girls a bit more, especially as some men have a hard time telling their fantasy sex life from the real world (we're not all porn stars or props from a porn shoot). Also swimsuit wearing is a common crossdressing fantasy item.
But I am conflicted as if this person is properly covered and it was just his style choice, he should be left alone and free to wear what ever appropriate swimwear he likes.

Accusing the swimmer of being a pervert and calling the police because their genitalia were visible to all and sundry and because they had an erection walking around the changing area is an appropriate response.

I started reading the post and felt horrified that the man was basically called a pervert by the lifeguard as I have no issue with anyone wearing whatever they want provided public decency is maintained. However, reading further the real issue was apparent - his genitalia were visible, presumably because the swimsuit he was wearing was designed for a female body. The sensible thing for him to have done would have been to wear a pair of speedos under the female costume.

Walking around with an erection is also unacceptable, although he denied that.

I do think the lifeguard and manager could have handled it a bit better by focusing on the indecent exposure element rather than the swimsuit per se but I suspect they were embarrassed at having to have the discussion in the first place.

So normally it’s all “I don’t care what men wear as long as they’re not trying to be women, men can wear womens clothes if they want”.

until they do that, do nothing to act inappropriately and then get slung out of the swimming pool. There are some incredibly tight speedos out there which leave nothing to the imagination but it would have been fine if he had been wearing those because they’re intended for men. Even if it is nothing more than a tiny sliver of fabric across the hips

The wearing of a female swimsuit makes no sense in this situation. The person in question identifies as non-binary, so the only reason I can think that they wore a female costume is to get a reaction. They do not ID as man or a woman so they could have easily worn a rash vest with swim shorts and non-one would have batted an eyelid. So they worried about their chest, but thought having their male genitalia on show was fine? I’m not buying this for a single minute.

It is exactly the same as a bearded man entering a female space but claiming they are a woman as they are wearing eyeliner or heels. They are there for a reaction and to raise awareness of how the Trans community are being abused by the bigoted TERFS.