LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

[pombear]

Fantastic news.

I would link to their Twitter announcement, but in usual state of play, Twitter has marked it ' may not be appropriate for people under 18'. A helpline planned for 13 to 25 year olds, planned by a panel of experts in child protection, education, helpline delivery, fundraising and psychology.

Yep - shut them down (much better to have helplines planned by IT workers who took their child to Thailand...)

As LGB Alliance state there is no dedicated national service of its kind for young LGB people in the UK.

I'm sure the Lottery Fund will be getting a lot of feedback right now, given the outpouring of hyperbole against LGB Alliance right now on Twitter.

So they may appreciate feedback from those who may see this as a positive move too:

""We really value your feedback. If you have a comment or complaint about the services that we provide, or if there's something important you think we should know, we'd love to hear it. Please email us at [email protected]"

I am very much not ashamed of myself 😀

Being upfront about your homophobia is one thing Hearach but the emoji is beyond the pale. There is nothing funny about hate.

no-one is being forced to be attracted to anyone they don't want,

Maybe not forced in any physical sense (although, as always, I don't quite know what this would look like - how do you force an attraction? No-one is saying this is happening?).

But pressured, coerced to sleep with people, threatened if you say you are not sexually attracted to that sex, and:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

Presumably that's OK with you, starlee, as it's not 'force'? Or will you confirm that pressuring, coercing and threatening is also abhorrent and worthy of discussion and people should be allowed to 'be worked up' about it?

"Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested."

Oh. So perhaps the coercion and pressure can actually equate to 'forcing'.
"Lesbians are still extremely scared to speak because they think they won't be believed, because the trans ideology is so silencing everywhere," she said.

""I was told that homosexuality doesn't exist and I owed it to my trans sisters to unlearn my 'genital confusion' so I can enjoy letting them penetrate me"

THIS is why LGB people need specific support.
But hey, this is apparently a harmonious and happy community.

Further to the point @DeaconBoo made, if a trans woman were literally a woman in law, how would the lesbians like those in the article even complain? In British law you can't be raped by a woman. Could a 'woman's penis' be used to rape?

This makes me think about how pre 1992 a man could legally rape his wife (this didn't apply to homosexuals though, as marriage for them was still a way off). Women aren't thrilled about enabling new ways to be sexually abused, funnily enough.

Any long time reader or poster will have seen a number of posts from young lesbians saying the same thing on MN.

The fear of being ostracized and isolated from this ‘wonderfully inclusive, tolerant, happy and loving, letting people be who they want to be’ community is very great.

The study from YouGov in December 2021 showed the numbers for the age group of 18-28 people who don’t tell their friends their opinions is large, so much larger than any other age group! Despite the fucked up rhetoric that ‘women fighting for women’s rights are intolerant and that is ok because the next generation is wonderful and loving and so when the ‘dinosaurs’ die off it will be all tolerance and love’. Fucked up because the generation they are talking about has been proven time and again to be exact opposite.

So, yes. I don’t believe any person who writes that everything is ‘wonderful and loving’.

This is happening. It is foolish to deny it is happening.

I have listened to 14/15 year old lesbians tell other lesbians in the group they are transphobic if they don’t do ‘girl duck’. A group of 5 lesbians just got told what is expected of them right then.

That is the damage being done and being denied is being done on this very thread.

Not that long ago we were deep in the MeToo movement, hoping that young women would grow up to feel empowered and stand up to any kind of sexual abuse and hopefully make tape culture a thing of the past.

Yet here we are with lesbians being encouraged or coerced into accepting penises as 'female sex organs' in the name of being inclusive and kind. I don't really see things getting better for women.

I'm sure the LGBA helpline will support lesbians who have been confronted with this issue. Without gaslighting them by telling them they were assaulted by another woman.

Fuck sake rape culture, not tape culture. Apologies.

Let me see if I have got the logic clear, which is that 'whatever people call themselves/how they feel' defines their sexual orientation, rather than biological sex:

So we can all agree that a man (male) and a woman (female) are a straight couple.

But gender logic would also say a woman (female) and a transman (female) could also be a straight* couple.

And a man (male) and a transwoman (male) could be a straight* couple too.

Would gender logic agree, though, that a transman (female) and a transwoman (male) are a straight couple?

Likewise, we all agree that a man (male) and a man (male) are a gay couple.

But gender logic asserts a man (male) and a transwoman (male) could also be a straight* couple.

And a transwoman (male) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple, not a gay couple.

Additionally, we all agree that a woman (female) and a woman (female) are a lesbian couple.

But gender logic says a woman (female) and a transman (female) would be a straight* couple.

And a transman (female) and a transman (female) are a gay couple not a lesbian couple. While a transwoman (male) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple, not a gay couple.

However, a woman (female) and a transwoman (male) are a lesbian couple not a straight* couple.

And a man (male) and a transman (female) are a gay couple not a straight* couple.

*where straight can also be synonymous with bisexual or pansexual, if that's how they identify.

With the proviso that it is the trans person who holds the casting vote on defining the nature of the orientation of the couple based on their identity.

Is that about right or have I missed something?

Oh yes, non binary people...

I don't know if or how a trans agender person can be gay or straight. I don't know what stonewall would say my sexuality is.

"insisting that homosexual people must not be allowed to organise"

Absolute rubbish, show me where I have "insisted" any such thing? Stop making up stuff that I've never said.

And you have no idea of my reality, same as you have no idea of the reality of trans people and the horrendous transphobia they face.
Anyone who is close to a trans person knows this reality, You could compare it to the realities face by lgb people decades ago, which you seem more than happy to inflict on trans people now.

And enjoying a Pride Parade is not my "personal reality", not my whole life, it is a happy respite from all the appalling everyday nastiness of transphobia.

Articles from Philadelphia Daily News, 1970 and 1974,

You are free to be attracted to whoever you want, regardless of your own or their 'labels', why restrict yourself to strict rules set by others?

Those 'labels' you are so dismissive of are defined in Law and therefore provided protections laid down in Law and Statute, YOU nor anyone else is 'free' to bastardise or subvert those definitions the result of you doing so is to deny the people they actually refer to protection under the Law.

By the way this is the UK not the USA so do please stop flooding this thread with US based articles, etc. The US is, contrary to your belief, NOT the entire world.

same as you have no idea of the reality of trans people

And you do?
You're the one who keeps telling us what 'trans people feel' and then refuse to coherently explain what you mean when we are understandably confused by your odd descriptions of minds and bodies not matching up.

Also, you mean 'definitions', not 'labels'. They're what give words actual meaning, rather than just being a collection of sounds or letters. Some people use them to communicate.

(as I said 6 days ago when you first started claiming that people were 'obsessed with labels').

Ridiculous post, again twisting what I said and completely missing the point.

"For the “essence” not to “match up”, i.e. for there to be a mismatch, then for this to make any kind of sense, there must be some logic (even if that’s using the term loosely) which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match."

A trans person who uses the term "born in the wrong body" is just that, one individual person with their own personality, stating that they, themselves, are in the wrong body, singular, not "a set of essences and bodies which DO match."

"if there was a narrowly and very precisely defined set of “woman personalities” to choose from, each of which was shared without deviation by large enough groups of women to make such definitions meaningful. Then a man could say, with some precision, “I feel like Woman Type A”. But there are no such groups, no such types, no such definitions. I am not the same as you, or as any other woman on this board, or as any other woman in the world."
Exactly what I've been saying, there is no "set of essences and bodies which DO match"🙄
But above you say "there must be some logic .... which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match."
Do make up your mind, either there is or there isn't?

@Starlee you do realise that in the UK trans people are very slightly statistically safer than non-trans people? A lot of the fear and mental anguish that many trans people experience is due to people like you constantly pushing the lie that trans people are the most oppressed people in the country, and that just to step out of their own front doors will cause them to be violently attacked. So lay off it. You are actively causing harm to the group you claim to be championing - including, unfortunately, young gender nonconforming people.

For goodness sake, are you being deliberately obtuse?

"This is what you claimed.
"their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other."
You are the person who introduced the notion that bodies and minds can 'match up with each other'. You have refused to explain this any further (presumably because you don't really understand or believe what you've said)."

I have explained this many times. I am talking about one individual who feels they were "born in the wrong body", who feels they, singular, do not match their own body,
This individual is not saying they are one of a larger group of "a particular type of essence" that does not match with a particular set of body types, they are talking solely about themselves, their own personality, their own body, not a group of souls or bodies..

I really don't know what to make of your paragraph:
"You also said "many trans people describe themselves [ as 'having the wrong body, because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body'] , as is their right." ."
I can't make any sense of that at all, some of the words are mine (as in ""many trans people describe themselves as 'having the wrong body, as is their right,") but you added a few words of your own (as in "because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body") which makes no sense and so the whole paragraph is just a mess of unconnected comments and inexplicably placed punctuation marks!

"Was that a trans person saying 'most of us HATE the phrase 'trapped in the wrong body'?
Yet some people on this thread insist that this is how they describe themselves"
I said MANY trans people use that phrase, not ALL. That is a fact, not my opinion. They have a right to describe themselves how they like without people like you picking holes in their words.

"In fact, starlee even claims that trans people don't feel comfortable in their bodies"
Discomfort is a very common way of describing it, again they're not my words. Are you telling trans people how they should think? Uncomfortable about parts of your body that don't match your gender identity.

Gender dysphoria and Body Dysmorphia are 2 different things, you're getting them very confused.

The only person confused on this thread is you @Starlee you have no coherent arguments, no evidence, constantly mixing up and playing fast and loose with definitions which provide legal protection, no logic, fling out damaging accusations and assertions that you cannot prove, and constantly contradict yourself.

Labels are defined in law but there is no law to say which sex or gender you can be attracted to or not, you are free to fancy who you like, age restrictions and familial relationships allowing of course.

Yes I do. You tend to learn a lot when you are your trans daughter's closest confidante and have many trans friends.

And I have explained many times about "minds and bodies not matching up." and given you links to help you more. I don't expect any thanks but to accuse me of "refusing" to explain is just a lie.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make a problem go away you know.
And you really think trans people need anyone to tell them the risks they face in their everyday lives?

"people like you constantly pushing the lie that trans people are the most oppressed people in the country, and that just to step out of their own front doors will cause them to be violently attacked."
Where have I even mentioned either of those things? Why do so many people on here try and put words into my mouth, but never back it up with any proof?

Labels are defined in law but there is no law to say which sex or gender you can be attracted to or not, you are free to fancy who you like, age restrictions and familial relationships allowing of course.

Indeed, but you are not free to subvert or bastardise a legal definition and insist that those to whom the legal definition does apply must accept that it applies to you when it doesn't.

The whole reason you joined this thread (remember what the thread is actually about?) is to say that you don't believe homosexual people should be allowed an organisation or representation of their own because to do so is hostile to TQ+ people, and they should not be allowed to run a helpline to talk to gay kids in case they mishandle a TQ+ one. So yes, you are insisting that homosexual people must not be allowed to organise.

Showing me 50 year old evidence does not make it ok to be homophobic and repressive to homosexual people, or to erase and redefine them and support politics that believes in converting or excluding homosexual people for not adapting their sexuality to TQ+ political wishes. That is certainly what homosexual people are facing right now, and it's not something TQ+ people are facing, it's being done in their name. It doesn't matter how sad one situation is for one group, it does not justify being appallingly oppressive to another group. Transphobia isn't a reason to make homophobia ok.

And you know I used to love Pride too. It was a happy respite for me as a homosexual female. It isn't any more. It's excluding, hostile and homophobic. And that isn't because of T people, because 30-40 years ago when I was going to Pride there were plenty of T people there. It's because of the Q+ politics and a hell of a lot of politically activist straight people and 'allies' who are busy harassing and exercising homophobia and justifying it by saying 'but if you only knew a T person like I do....' which in effect adds, (you'd let me be homophobic and shove you out of your own organisation without arguing about it, while activisting to stop you setting up something else of your own where you'd be allowed to exist in peace too.)

TQ+ politics cannot tolerate homosexual people to exist, and certainly not to be allowed a political voice or organisation of their own. Hence the point of this whole thread. The LGBA only has to exist to be intolerable to TQ+ politics.

I have no problem at all with T people, I have T friends, I've been part of groups with T people since my teens .I have a BIG problem with TQ+ politics and how it treats other people. While insisting it's virtuous and kind and inclusive. It's not. Its an appalling movement.

And to head off the reply you've come up with multiple times that 'The LGBT+ community is all homophobic and fine with it thinks like I do' ....

as has been said multiple times it thinks like you do because the TQ+ political people have driven out anyone who thought differently and dared to say so.

There are very few GC voices in the LGBT community because they were driven out

That makes the LGBT community not a group representing the diverse feelings of LGBT people. It just makes it a political mouthpiece.

Hence the determination to never let homosexual people set up and successfully have a rival political mouthpiece because what they would then say would be damn inconvenient.

Hence the narrative - the LGBA is evil.

Because it's not controlled by TQ+ politics, basically. And has people who will say that sex exists and is the basis for their homosexuality (including the T members, some of whom are well known speakers on this). And that is not something that the TQ+ political lobby want the government or general public to hear. Nor do they want the government to realise that the LGBT+ Stonewalled lobby does not by any means speak for all LGBT+ people. Because it would be really inconvenient to them in achieving their political aims.