LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

[pombear]

Fantastic news.

I would link to their Twitter announcement, but in usual state of play, Twitter has marked it ' may not be appropriate for people under 18'. A helpline planned for 13 to 25 year olds, planned by a panel of experts in child protection, education, helpline delivery, fundraising and psychology.

Yep - shut them down (much better to have helplines planned by IT workers who took their child to Thailand...)

As LGB Alliance state there is no dedicated national service of its kind for young LGB people in the UK.

I'm sure the Lottery Fund will be getting a lot of feedback right now, given the outpouring of hyperbole against LGB Alliance right now on Twitter.

So they may appreciate feedback from those who may see this as a positive move too:

""We really value your feedback. If you have a comment or complaint about the services that we provide, or if there's something important you think we should know, we'd love to hear it. Please email us at [email protected]"

no-one is being 'erased',

"What's a lesbian?"

A middle aged father of five.

🙄

no-one is being forced to be attracted to anyone they don't want

This is patently untrue. Lesbians are being put under a lot of pressure to accept transwomen (males) as prospective sexual partners. This is rape culture, and to deny the myriad accounts of it happening is rape apologism.

Did we get through another day without the acknowledgement that in fact Nancy Kelley accused lesbians of prejudice if they weren’t including males as their sexual partners?

And that a prominent transitioned male tran spokesperson declared that lesbians could learn to cope with penis in vagina sex?

And that McGahey used apartheid as an analogy for lesbians not having sex with males?

The determined effort to remain ignorant of the reality that in fact there most definitely is coercive pressure on lesbians to have sex with males who have taken the word themselves is outstanding.

Nothing to see here.

It is all wonderful, loving and inclusive.

I see that we also got not even a skerrick of acknowledgement that puberty blockers have some significant health risks too.

If what you say here was true, you wouldn't be on page 33 of a thread insisting that homosexual people must not be allowed to organise (on the basis of wanting to be who they want and have sex with who they want).

And it would mean you've managed somehow to avoid seeing or thinking about the wealth of evidence shared on this thread that no, this is not true.

So this is your personal reality, isn't it? And I get that it's lovely in there. Everything is happy and wonderful, and no facts exist in there that you don't like or might make you doubt what you like believing, and you can't see any evidence that might spoil your happy faith, and you can say several conflicting things and yet have them all be true to you at the same time. It's rather what Trump does.

But you can't tell me that your personal reality is also mine, and I must base my perceptions on it, because outside of your head that reality does not exist.

And it's no basis at all for preventing other people standing up for their rights and needs and to be able to have their own voices. They don't live in your lovely reality. And they can't disappear the nasty stuff the way you seem to be able to.

We also have no evidence that LGB Alliance is not a suitable organisation to run a LGB focused helpline for young people.

We have a poster though, with a number of deletions, who has not been able to back up any of their wildly prejudiced views about LGB Alliance now on two threads about the organisation.

There is a huge effort from people who probably call themselves hugely tolerant to destroy the reputation of LGB Alliance.

So tolerant.

Wondering if I can disappear Boris Johnson from reality this morning by insisting he doesn't exist? Or just that he is lovely because he's lovely and there are no problems at all regarding him or his leadership because there aren't!

See! Now everything's lovely in the UK What are you on about that there are some problems with .... no. Get over yourselves. He's lovely. There are no problems.

At last someone is starting to get it!. No-one5 is being prevented from being attracted to whoever they want, no-one is being forced to be attracted to anyone they don't want, everyone can just carry on living their own lives as they choose, no-one is being 'erased', so what on earth are you all getting so worked up about?

Another hypocritical post.

No one is saying people cannot be attracted to whoever they want!

No one ever did on this thread !

People have been repetitively and patiently stating, even to the point of explaining as if to a child, that what a small group are doing is forceably changing the words used to describe sexual orientation.

Shall we now look at the theories behind the movement of why this is happening? Why a group of people is seeking to destabilise known science and language to suit their needs?

I mean, we can also continue to look at some of the people, the intellectuals, who have contributed to that particular movement.

no-one is being 'erased'

Does it even register in your mind you are telling lesbians what they are experiencing is non-existent?

While actually ignoring the few selected examples of it happening.. maybe we should post the rest? At least the readers will appreciate it.

what on earth are you all getting so worked up about

So much wonderful love, inclusion, happiness and, oh yes, respect, in that statement.

And it would mean you've managed somehow to avoid seeing or thinking about the wealth of evidence shared on this thread that no, this is not true.

So this is your personal reality, isn't it? And I get that it's lovely in there. Everything is happy and wonderful, and no facts exist in there that you don't like or might make you doubt what you like believing, and you can't see any evidence that might spoil your happy faith, and you can say several conflicting things and yet have them all be true to you at the same time. It's rather what Trump does.

But you can't tell me that your personal reality is also mine, and I must base my perceptions on it, because outside of your head that reality does not exist.

And it's no basis at all for preventing other people standing up for their rights and needs and to be able to have their own voices. They don't live in your lovely reality. And they can't disappear the nasty stuff the way you seem to be able to.

Fab post!

Does it even register in your mind you are telling lesbians what they are experiencing is non-existent?

While actually ignoring the few selected examples of it happening.. maybe we should post the rest? At least the readers will appreciate it.

For anyone in doubting this is gaslighting behaviour and coercive in nature. DARVO isn’t it? I could be wrong…

Yes I do believe some people are born in the wrong body. But that's not the same as telling children their body is wrong - their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other.

Starlee, these are your own words.

For the “essence” not to “match up”, i.e. for there to be a mismatch, then for this to make any kind of sense, there must be some logic (even if that’s using the term loosely) which dictates there is a set of essences and bodies which DO match.

The entire concept of transgenderism is predicated upon men “feeling like” they’re women and vice versa. The point we persistently, patiently, repeatedly ask and have been asking for years is: how can a man possibly know he feels like a woman? Which one of the billions of women in the world does he feel like, specifically? His mum? His female boss? Mother Theresa?

Women have persistently, patiently, repeatedly pointed out there is no “woman essence”; that we are all unique in thought and personality and the only commonality is our biology. (Of course we’re ignored when we say this, because we’re only women and so what do we know about being women?)

The only way anyone could accurately claim to “feel like a woman” would be if there was a narrowly and very precisely defined set of “woman personalities” to choose from, each of which was shared without deviation by large enough groups of women to make such definitions meaningful. Then a man could say, with some precision, “I feel like Woman Type A”. But there are no such groups, no such types, no such definitions. I am not the same as you, or as any other woman on this board, or as any other woman in the world. You can say the same.

All people have to fall back on when they claim to “feel like” the other sex are stereotypes and their own biased perception of what the other sex should be. And women are far, far more than stereotypes and other people’s perceptions.

(Yes, even the lesbian ones.)

A male declaring they ‘feel like a woman’ can only ever be declaring they feel like a male perception of what a woman is.

Nothing more.

A female only is a ‘woman’ because she has a body formed around the production of large gametes despite whether that production of large gametes has ever, is or will ever occurred. *

There is nothing else that defines a ‘woman’ universally. So how can a male call themself a ‘woman’.

*and before we start down the track of using other people’s medical conditions. Even people with DSDs are either male or female, we have all answered the ridiculous whataboutery before, please stop using people’s medical conditions to force open the categories of female/woman.

All people have to fall back on when they claim to “feel like” the other sex are stereotypes and their own biased perception of what the other sex should be. And women are far, far more than stereotypes and other people’s perceptions.

Which is not to say the feelings are not real.

But a man's feeling about his body has nothing to do with actual women, just as an anorexic's feeling about their body has nothing to do with other people.

The problem isn't the feeling - it's the projection of this internal feeling onto women - actual real people - and what it means for them and their rights.

Why attach this feeling to female people, specifically? Why can't men just leave women out of it and identify with other "transwomen"? Then at least it would be consensual.

If they were really a straight couple, why did someone yell 'faggots' at them?

Because many people think presenting as the opposite sex is a form of being gay/bisexual in itself. This is strengthened by T being associated with LGB. Most transphobia is born of homophobia.

Excellent point.

Here is another example of the wonderful love, inclusion, and happiness of Pride.

ReclaimPrideBrighton 21/06/2022 at 11.44 via Twitter

“if TERFs try to mobilise in Brighton: it will be the last city they ever mobilise in : D”

So tolerant….

Or is this a spoofed Pride account? Happy to see that evidence too.

Here are more tweets from them.

I notice the wording in the top tweet in that thread. It uses the words ‘love’ and ‘solidarity’, right before ‘Bash the fuck’.

Violence aimed at women who disagree with them.

Something to be proud about
apparently. It is in the name.

@starlee - at best you seem muddled about what you have said yourself or even believe; at worst you seem to be dishonest about it.

This is what you claimed.

"their mind/soul/psyche, whatever you call the essence that makes them 'them' is right, their bodies are right, they just don't match up with each other."

You are the person who introduced the notion that bodies and minds can 'match up with each other'. You have refused to explain this any further (presumably because you don't really understand or believe what you've said).

You also said "And I believe that 'inner being' can feel at odds with the body because I've seen for myself the changes before and after transitioning and it's not something that can be 'put on' if it's not real."

Here you still describe it in terms of the inner being feeling 'at odds' with the body - the definition of this is 'in conflict'. So again, you see it as two different things that can be either in alignment or in conflict.

You also said "I stated that "being born in the wrong body" is how many trans people try to describe how they feel. It is not for us to tell them how they must describe themselves."

You also said "many trans people describe themselves [ as 'having the wrong body, because your kind of true self/soul/personality is only ever found in other types of body'] , as is their right." .

What you "said from the start" is that it is possible for minds and bodies to 'match'. I have spent many posts trying to understand what you even mean by that and you've spent most of the time denying that you said it. You implied that minds and bodies can or can't match. I am asking - how?

Is it simply that you mean "minds and bodies match" when the person is not unhappy with their body?

You have now restated it as 'feeling uncomfortable' with their body, which imo the majority of people in this country would feel - that doesn't make them trans.

So, essentially, you are saying trans people don't like their bodies, but not because they feel any sex should match with any particular gender feeling, just because they have some kind of body dysmorphia?

I genuinely don't understand your claim. You say that a body and mind don't match but 'don't understand' when I ask what a match looks like? Can you try and explain what - to you - a 'match' between mind and body looks like?

Do you just mean someone that doesn't want to change any part of their body?

That message didn't seem to tag properly so just doing it now @Starlee

Here is another quote from Rachel McKinnon (who is now Veronica Ivy)

“I mean, I am more specific and want them to die in a grease fire …”

about women who disagree with them.

Another example of the inclusiveness, the tolerance and the wonderful love from males.

And I don’t see people calling that person out! They were still a uni lecturer at the time, and even in April this year were giving interviews on UK media as a trans spokesperson.

Maybe, just maybe some acknowledgement about the reality that everything is not this bubble of ‘everything is awesome’ is warranted.

Maybe there are some people who have some very prejudiced views in society who want the LGB Alliance removed as an alternative for LBG people because they cannot accept that some LGB people have different views.

And maybe there are some people who are determined to be good allies who will ignore the behaviour and the intentions of those people for their own personal reasons, but are still perpetuating the deeply harmful prejudices.

“I mean, I am more specific and want them to die in a grease fire …”

Ironically, anyone wishing the same on world class athlete McKinnon wouldn't need to specify.

Helle Was that a trans person saying 'most of us HATE the phrase 'trapped in the wrong body'?
Yet some people on this thread insist that this is how they describe themselves and I should ask them if I don't understand it?

In fact, starlee even claims that trans people don't feel comfortable in their bodies - "they feel it is very wrong" - which I believe several trans people have said is an incredibly transphobic attitude, as it buys into the belief that male or female bodies bear any relation to who you are as a person. (Also indicated by people saying minds and bodies can be matched up).

I do understand that many people in the world have body dysmorphia - they are unhappy with their bodies. This in itself no more makes someone trans than being anorexic makes someone trans.

I also understand that many trans people say very vocally that women can have penises etc - that who you are has nothing to do with your body. These are the ones who generally say that you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans.

Well, as @Starlee says, some transgender people describe themselves as 'trapped in the wrong body'. Others transgender people reject that idea. As has been pointed out, transgender people are individuals, with wide-ranging views and opinions and motivations.

What Stonewall et al are asking for is to redefine language based on the views of some transpeople, such as the idea 'transmen are men/transwomen are women'. This is very much an opinion and not a fact, as some activists insist, often tagging 'no debate' to the end of the statement. This mantra is not a fact, it is an opinion held by some people, but these lobbying groups trying to change public policy and law based on this opinion.

What we do know, that science and thousands of years of observation have shown us, is that humans are sexually dimorphic, and that using 'man' and 'woman' as biological terms has always served us well as a species. Examples: very different medical needs between the sexes, and as feminists are all too aware, women have been poorly served by patriarchal society, which discriminates against women on the basis of their sex.

Accepting that trans people are the sex they say they are based on their opinions goes against everything rational that we have built our society on and will result in detriment to other oppressed groups. That is not to say that we shouldn't try to support and protect trans people, but that we should find ways to accommodate them into society without detriment to other groups. Rational debate around this issue is badly needed.

If you ask gender critical people, they would say that actually the gender roles and stereotypes that have been forced on people because of their biological sex are damaging and that all people would be able to live their lives more freely without them. Some examples: I'm sure we can all agree that we'd be much better off without toxic masculinity. Men and boys being called 'sissie' and other worse labels if they don't want to conform to masculine stereotypes. I also wish in 2022 that I wasn't happily surprised to see a woman roofer/bus driver/engineer at work.

I can only see that allowing the pretence that trans people are the sex they say they are will further entrench gender stereotypes and perpetuate the harm caused to everyone.

Deacon

I saw that when I read it. I did wonder whether people would pick it up.

I thought the image was very appropriate, in pointing out that maybe some allies really are not in touch with the thoughts of the wider group of trans people outside their mates.

As we have been trying to say here.

Just like maybe they are not in touch with the ‘majority’ of LGB people outside their bubble as well.